Ghost ball, Paralell line etc.

C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Do any of the pros actually use these systems?

I remember about a year ago I tried to use the ghost balls system but I found that it could fail at clutch moments. I tried the Hal Houle edge of the ball system, but I found that I was never completely comfortable and confident with it. As a result it failed at clutch moments.

I know that alot of players use a variety of systems and they become very complex. But the more complex a system is the more chance of error. The more chance of error involved in a system increases the likelyhood of a miss.

Personally I have reverted to aiming based on experiance. I have made all of these shots millions of times so I recognize how the cue ball looks in relation to the object ball for each of these shots. I am very confident in this and I rarely second guess myself (usually because I play at a Rodney Morris pace).

Now I reiterate the quesion, does anyone know of any pros that utilize these systems? I ask the question because I often hear people saying "this and that aiming method works for me". But the problem is that the people that tell me this are C and B players, and have been for a long time.
 
Last edited:
Cameron Smith said:
Do any of the pros actually use these systems?

I remember about a year ago I tried to use the ghost balls system but I found that it could fail at clutch moments. I tried the Hal Houle edge of the ball system, but I found that I was never completely comfortable and confident with it. As a result it failed at clutch moments.

I know that alot of players use a variety of systems and they become very complex. But the more complex a system is the more chance of error. The more chance of error involved in a system increases the likelyhood of a miss.

Personally I have reverted to aiming based on experiance. I have made all of these shots millions of times so I recognize how the cue ball looks in relation to the object ball for each of these shots. I am very confident in this and I rarely second guess myself (usually because I play at a Rodney Morris pace).

Now I reiterate the quesion, does anyone know of any pros that utilize these systems? I ask the question because I often hear people saying "this and that aiming method works for me". But the problem is that the people that tell me this are C and B players, and have been for a long time.
Click to expand...


You can actually dig up some of my older posts on the subject. I've gone over this quite a bit. But to answer your question concisely, I'll simply say that the systems you speak of are for learning. It's like training wheels. In the beginning, some people have no concept to what is happening and this helps them open their minds a bit. No, I don't think ANY professional actually uses the ghost-ball method or any aiming method for that matter. They just don't cover the dynamics of the game.

I find it intriguing that people continue to use these crutches as their games improve only to hit a ceiling, searching for new systems. Your brain automatically catalogs every single shot you've ever seen, taken or dreamt. You're best off learning to conform to your brain's way of angling rather than trying to get your brain to conform (if this sounds odd, pm me and I'll explain further).
 
i shoot alot of shots with Familiarity, but i never really did use the ghost ball system. Hal's Small Ball Hit, and Aim and Pivot are what i use, but most of the time i just either look at the edge of half and hit center ball to make the shots.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You can actually dig up some of my older posts on the subject. I've gone over this quite a bit. But to answer your question concisely, I'll simply say that the systems you speak of are for learning. It's like training wheels. In the beginning, some people have no concept to what is happening and this helps them open their minds a bit. No, I don't think ANY professional actually uses the ghost-ball method or any aiming method for that matter. They just don't cover the dynamics of the game.

I find it intriguing that people continue to use these crutches as their games improve only to hit a ceiling, searching for new systems. Your brain automatically catalogs every single shot you've ever seen, taken or dreamt. You're best off learning to conform to your brain's way of angling rather than trying to get your brain to conform (if this sounds odd, pm me and I'll explain further).
Click to expand...

damn, finally someone who gets it right, nice post. i've seen so much crap on this subject. a simple test i would have hal or any system guru try... just set up a difficult cut shot at one end of the table where the object ball has to travel almost the full lenth of the table, but the cue ball is very close to the object ball. now, if a system really works, shouldn't they be able to make a shot like this every time? they are close to the ball, shooting strait isn't the problem, and they should be able to line up the "system" component of the shot exactly since they are so close to the ball.

i must say, i don't listen to people who talk about systems, so maybe they have a reason as to why they can't make this ball every time.

imo, if there were no friction between pool balls then i would think about finding an aiming system. since there is friction, and the amount of friction changes, there is no way a system can work, pool is way too complex for that.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You can actually dig up some of my older posts on the subject. I've gone over this quite a bit. But to answer your question concisely, I'll simply say that the systems you speak of are for learning. It's like training wheels. In the beginning, some people have no concept to what is happening and this helps them open their minds a bit. No, I don't think ANY professional actually uses the ghost-ball method or any aiming method for that matter. They just don't cover the dynamics of the game.

I find it intriguing that people continue to use these crutches as their games improve only to hit a ceiling, searching for new systems. Your brain automatically catalogs every single shot you've ever seen, taken or dreamt. You're best off learning to conform to your brain's way of angling rather than trying to get your brain to conform (if this sounds odd, pm me and I'll explain further).
Click to expand...


Really well written!....that's twice in 1 day I felt the need to compliment you!....cut it out...:D

I think more people would understand the learning curve if all these systems had the disclaimer of

"for learning purposes only, rely on your experience after mastering"

Obviously some systems like the diamond or kicking systems you can use for ever, but the ones that teach your muscle memory/instinct/intuition/whatever can be let go after you get to a level of not needing them anymore.

Gerry
 
enzo said:
...imo, if there were no friction between pool balls then i would think about finding an aiming system. since there is friction, and the amount of friction changes, there is no way a system can work, pool is way too complex for that.
Click to expand...
I thought this statement was kind of funny.

It's like saying...

"If there were no friction between pool balls then i would think about using the 90-degree rule on stun shots. Since there is friction, and the amount of friction changes, there is no way the 90-degree rule can work, pool is way too complex for that."
 
Okay guys break when I say break, keep your punches up, no low blows, go back to your corners and come out fighting. Lol
I’m in but let’s not get crazy okay. Jude says aiming systems are like training wheels and are for learning (I agree) but we’re just not sure when we should take them off. How good should our aim be before we stop consciously thinking about aim or giving our brain a little extra help prior to shooting a high pressure shot?
I have been on both sides of the fence. I played for 15 yrs on feel and gave hundreds of lessons telling my students don’t worry about your aim, we’ll work on your stroke and your cue ball positioning skills and the aim will come along gradually. Did I have success both playing and teaching that way? Yes.
The last 4 or 5 years I’ve aimed and taught a system that is an improved version of contact point to contact point method that is meant to improve a players perception and have improved my own game (while playing less) which we might say had hit a ceiling and have had more success teaching my students.
So obviously both ways worked for me, you can improve without a system and you can improve with a system.
The question still remains, is a player better off having a reliable conscious method of aim than not having one?
I say they’re definitely better off with one and I say that having the experience of shooting very high pressure shots both with and without a method.
One problem with aiming systems is they seem to slow down players and make them too analytical which can block the brains natural flow. But if you have a method that you know is correct and you’ve absorbed it 100%, it becomes automatic and it works with the brain, often giving you more confidence. I never have to wonder if my method is correct or not but I do worry a little about my ability to execute the answer it gives me. At least with the method I use I can get down on any shot and know specifically (not vaguely, like okay pocket the ball) what it is I have to accomplish.

Blab bla bla I could go on for pages expressing to you how many ways I think having a reliable method of aim can improve a player’s overall game (and I will if you make me!)lol

Willie Mosconi quoted as saying I look at the contact point on the object ball and I match it with the correct contact point on the front of the cue ball and I try to keep those 2 points lined up as I get down into the shot. If I’ve done that and feel good about it, I shoot, if I feel I haven’t done that I get up and start over.
Mike Massey didn’t have a problem endorsing my method of aim because he says it’s basically how he aims anyways, he matches the contact points. He just didn’t use the numbers I put up there.
Jim Rempe (on tape) says he learned some aiming techniques from Buddy Hall that work very well but wouldn’t divulge the info when egged on by Incardona.
Jimmy Reid is the one that taught me that the cue ball has the exact equal but opposite contact point as the object ball.
Ralph Soquet was recently asked to talk about his pre-match preparation, would he?Nope. Do we blame him? Nope.
I can’t say for sure if Johnny Archer uses parallel lines or contact points but he’s sure doing something on those critical shots and we can’t argue with his success rate.
Does the Ginkster use a method of aim? I don’t know but I do know that he’s very visual and sees things clearer in his minds eye than 99.9% of us ever will. Does this stop him from seeking out more reliable methods that he might not be aware of? Nope.
I believe someone here recently quoted Charlie Bryant as saying there’s a system for everything and they make it easier to be more consistent and stay in stroke when not playing as much.
And I say, I’ll bet even money that I can improve any players game in 2 days by teaching them how to use my aiming system.
Aiming systems are not for everyone that is for sure. The most gifted players start young and their brains natural perception of aim is a beautiful thing. But most pool players don’t have this gift and a good method of aiming can and will help most of us.
One last reminder that might be needed here is that telling players to drop a system (once learned) should not be confused with, do not use or learn a proper method of aim at all.
 
Pros use spend many hours shooting balls in! Right Allen? (Or something like that.) Now you can shoot as good as the pros by using the Spider. I can't imagine someone falling for that gimmick. Can you imagine someone using a Spider to line up a shot during a game. I am almost tempted to buy one and do that for the reactions that I would get. The only reason I won't is because of the cost. $59.95 (x3). I like the way they make it look like it is $59.00.

I asked a good player years ago how he aims and he said he just knows where to hit the ball by the place that it is on the table. I was amazed, confused, by this statement but now I know what he meant because that is how I aim now. It just comes natural to get into the shot and shoot without even looking at the pocket, even though I really am.

As stated everything initially is a starting or reference point after that it is second nature.
 
Joe Willie Mosconi quoted as saying I look at the contact point on the object ball and I match it with the correct contact point on the front of the cue ball and I try to keep those 2 points lined up as I get down into the shot. If I’ve done that and feel good about it said:
Joe

I have tried lining up these contact points. They are easy to do on paper or when looking overhead. The problem I have is when getting down in shooting position the contact point on the cue ball is lost because it is behind the ball and I cannot see it. I guess I am missing something
Click to expand...
 
TheBook said:
Joe

I have tried lining up these contact points. They are easy to do on paper or when looking overhead. The problem I have is when getting down in shooting position the contact point on the cue ball is lost because it is behind the ball and I cannot see it. I guess I am missing something
Click to expand...
I feel ya. I was missing something also but the way I numbered (or labeled) the contact points on the front of the cue ball makes it much easier to continually improve your perception of them. BUT I still sometimes prefer to sneak a peak at the exact spot on the front of the cue ball prior to getting down into the shot, especially when the cue ball is in a position that allows me to do this and especially when it's a critical shot.
 
http://www.sfbilliards.com/PnB_aiming.pdf

Click on the above link for an Adobe .pdf from Pool and Billiard Magazine '95.

Dozens of top pros weight in.

What did I take away from the article? That pool is a game of feel. Nobody at the highest level uses systems as their primary shooting tool. They may use it to back up their instincts, or to double check themselves, so to speak. But nobody has geometric formulas running through their head while shooting that long, tough cut shot on the nine ball to win that hill hill match.

Hope this helps.
 
The More I think about it...

The more I think about it the more it seems to me like pros would have a definite aiming system. I have recently done exhaustive searches on all pool forums trying to find out more about aiming systems. I personally never used one, and I have been playing for over ten years. The reason I think they may use one is for a couple of reasons. First, pros never seem happy with something that isn't repeatable and consistent. They work on the break until it is just right, they work on their stroke (most of them), and their stance. They go to coaches for stroking straight. So why would they not use a repeatable system to aim with? Plus, if you think about it, you can watch pros and copy their stroke, their speed, their position play. What is one thing you can't know unless they tell you? How they aim.
Just a thought
 
Gregg said:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/PnB_aiming.pdf

Click on the above link for an Adobe .pdf from Pool and Billiard Magazine '95.

Dozens of top pros weight in.

What did I take away from the article? That pool is a game of feel. Nobody at the highest level uses systems as their primary shooting tool. They may use it to back up their instincts, or to double check themselves, so to speak. But nobody has geometric formulas running through their head while shooting that long, tough cut shot on the nine ball to win that hill hill match.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

I totally agree it's a game of feel but when we talk so strongly about this situation we tend to mislead people learning the game. You state they may use it to back themselves up and I agree but in order to use it they must have taken the time out to learn it and then decide how they want to play. I went around for years stating it's just a feel thing so I know where your at. The problem is, few people know where I'm at, I've been on both sides of the fence effectively.
I use my method on every single shot (unless I had a lazy moment) and there are never, never any geometric formulas running through my head.
Education can help and yes it can hurt if you don't learn to absorb, process and trust it and yourself as effortlessly as possible.
 
What I've been doing lately comes from watching Phil Mickelson putt. I start behind the cue ball going slightly from side to side lining it up with the object ball and pocket until I'm "dialed in" on my angle. Then I get down trust it and shoot. I make no real adjustment for English used except hitting a little full or thin for different spin and speed.

I have no idea if this is already a "system" but it works like a charm for me. especially now that my body alignment is corrected.

G.
 
Everything Joe T just said is accurate..

Joe knows and has come up with an effective way of using a geometric truth of reacting spheres...

This truth is something that is the case for everyone and having knowledge of it only bolsters your game. Johnny Archer is quoted as saying that when aiming he stands back and looks at the parallel lines from about three feet. What he's doing is getting an idea of where the CP's are....

Even if NO pros used ANY aiming system, should that stop anyone who's learning from doing so? the answer is porfoundly NO....

One of the biggest problems with learning solely by feel is that when something goes wrong, you have no idea why...

It could be stroke, it could be stance, it could be AIM....

Hell, it could be poor stroke because of bad aim and that's because of the conflict between what you think and what you know...

By using aiming systems and good mechanics, it helps the learning player to isolate what problems they have. If you can be sure that you're lining up properly and you feel yourself pull your stroke to the side on a shot and you miss, then you can be pretty sure that it was a problem with either your stroke or your stance and you can work on isolating and replicating the problem so that you can FIX it for the future....

I haven't heard ONE top player advocate going solely by feel on anything.....and until YOU do I would suggest getting all of the information and learning all of the systems that you can because Knowledge is power and power employed in gaining a skill is mastery....
 
Joe T said:
Okay guys break when I say break, keep your punches up, no low blows, go back to your corners and come out fighting. Lol
I’m in but let’s not get crazy okay. Jude says aiming systems are like training wheels and are for learning (I agree) but we’re just not sure when we should take them off. How good should our aim be before we stop consciously thinking about aim or giving our brain a little extra help prior to shooting a high pressure shot?
I have been on both sides of the fence. I played for 15 yrs on feel and gave hundreds of lessons telling my students don’t worry about your aim, we’ll work on your stroke and your cue ball positioning skills and the aim will come along gradually. Did I have success both playing and teaching that way? Yes.
The last 4 or 5 years I’ve aimed and taught a system that is an improved version of contact point to contact point method that is meant to improve a players perception and have improved my own game (while playing less) which we might say had hit a ceiling and have had more success teaching my students.
So obviously both ways worked for me, you can improve without a system and you can improve with a system.
The question still remains, is a player better off having a reliable conscious method of aim than not having one?
I say they’re definitely better off with one and I say that having the experience of shooting very high pressure shots both with and without a method.
One problem with aiming systems is they seem to slow down players and make them too analytical which can block the brains natural flow. But if you have a method that you know is correct and you’ve absorbed it 100%, it becomes automatic and it works with the brain, often giving you more confidence. I never have to wonder if my method is correct or not but I do worry a little about my ability to execute the answer it gives me. At least with the method I use I can get down on any shot and know specifically (not vaguely, like okay pocket the ball) what it is I have to accomplish.

Blab bla bla I could go on for pages expressing to you how many ways I think having a reliable method of aim can improve a player’s overall game (and I will if you make me!)lol

Willie Mosconi quoted as saying I look at the contact point on the object ball and I match it with the correct contact point on the front of the cue ball and I try to keep those 2 points lined up as I get down into the shot. If I’ve done that and feel good about it, I shoot, if I feel I haven’t done that I get up and start over.
Mike Massey didn’t have a problem endorsing my method of aim because he says it’s basically how he aims anyways, he matches the contact points. He just didn’t use the numbers I put up there.
Jim Rempe (on tape) says he learned some aiming techniques from Buddy Hall that work very well but wouldn’t divulge the info when egged on by Incardona.
Jimmy Reid is the one that taught me that the cue ball has the exact equal but opposite contact point as the object ball.
Ralph Soquet was recently asked to talk about his pre-match preparation, would he?Nope. Do we blame him? Nope.
I can’t say for sure if Johnny Archer uses parallel lines or contact points but he’s sure doing something on those critical shots and we can’t argue with his success rate.
Does the Ginkster use a method of aim? I don’t know but I do know that he’s very visual and sees things clearer in his minds eye than 99.9% of us ever will. Does this stop him from seeking out more reliable methods that he might not be aware of? Nope.
I believe someone here recently quoted Charlie Bryant as saying there’s a system for everything and they make it easier to be more consistent and stay in stroke when not playing as much.
And I say, I’ll bet even money that I can improve any players game in 2 days by teaching them how to use my aiming system.
Aiming systems are not for everyone that is for sure. The most gifted players start young and their brains natural perception of aim is a beautiful thing. But most pool players don’t have this gift and a good method of aiming can and will help most of us.
One last reminder that might be needed here is that telling players to drop a system (once learned) should not be confused with, do not use or learn a proper method of aim at all.
Click to expand...

Well said Joe!

For those who don't know Joe, here is the story of a Joss Tour event he won last year.

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=3218

Colin <~ Also converted from feel, to systems to feel + systems.
 
Joe T said:
I totally agree it's a game of feel but when we talk so strongly about this situation we tend to mislead people learning the game. You state they may use it to back themselves up and I agree but in order to use it they must have taken the time out to learn it and then decide how they want to play. I went around for years stating it's just a feel thing so I know where your at. The problem is, few people know where I'm at, I've been on both sides of the fence effectively.
I use my method on every single shot (unless I had a lazy moment) and there are never, never any geometric formulas running through my head.
Education can help and yes it can hurt if you don't learn to absorb, process and trust it and yourself as effortlessly as possible.
Click to expand...


I think your system is an excellent system Joe. If I had a problem finding the contact points I'd purchase it in a NY second. My problem is making the cue ball arrive at the particular spot or corrections that need to be made do to speed and spin. (been trying to use more center ball)

One thing that I see that makes your system so good is.... your dividing the relevant quarter of the ball into 9 equal parts. Because it is going around the curvature of the sphere, the more cut you are putting on the ball, the smaller and therefore more accurate these indicators are. So on thinner cuts where you need it your system becomes even more accurate. Am I making any since here Joe?
 
Gregg said:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/PnB_aiming.pdf

Click on the above link for an Adobe .pdf from Pool and Billiard Magazine '95.

Dozens of top pros weight in.

What did I take away from the article? That pool is a game of feel. Nobody at the highest level uses systems as their primary shooting tool. They may use it to back up their instincts, or to double check themselves, so to speak. But nobody has geometric formulas running through their head while shooting that long, tough cut shot on the nine ball to win that hill hill match.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...


Don't you think that pro's have secrets. Maybe there's a secret to why they make every ball and get perfect shape every time.
 
Hey Cap I appreciate your comments along with everyone else’s and all of your assumptions are correct and I’m not here JUST to plug my system. Of course it’s very hard to talk about aiming without plugging it.

I think the important thing here is that there are good systems out there that weren’t available earlier and I believe that these methods can help players improve faster
(not everybody has the time available to just hit millions of balls and I think saying everyone’s brain will improve their aim the same as the next guys or gals is like saying we all have the same IQ or same memory skills) and by taking such a negative tone towards these methods here that we can actually slow the progress of players here and nobody here really wants that. Do we?
 
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