Reply to Rodie about Case Copying

Now hopefully everyone can see in living color what the discussion was about.

Post a link...

Post a link to the original debate...in looking at the pictures the bottom case is much more refined in terms of fit and finish IMHO.

paulybatz said:

Post a link to the original debate...in looking at the pictures the bottom case is much more refined in terms of fit and finish IMHO.

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This was the the thread where it started again.:groucho:

Never a doubt!

Jack Justis said:

I edited the photos to show the copy and original. I appreciate your comment though.

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Wow Jack, I for one, think it was TOO obvious which was which!!
Never a doubt; of course the similarity is just as obvious....

Mr. Justis,

Do you honestly believe that the fact that the case done by Mr. Barton is a copy of yours just because of the fact that the closures are done in a similar manner?

Other than that and the fact that both case use pocket styles that were done by Mr. Jay Flowers prior to both of you I see enough differences to refute your claim that the J.Flowers is a "copy" at all.

For it to be a copy it must first of all have a nearly identical design. Surely you will not begin to claim that the design in your example is close to yours much less identical.

Are you claiming that you and only you have the right to make pockets and lids a certain way?

If so then why have you appropriated the pocket style of Jay Flowers cases?

From an old thread I have found this link that Mr. Barton posted - http://www.jbcases.com/cases/jflowers/history/

At this place he shows many Flowers cases and it is very clear that those cases show elements that were done well before you came on the scene.

For example this one:



Do you deny Mr. Justis that Jay Flowers was doing this type of pocket before you did?

Also Mr. Justis I see many cases done by you with different configurations when it comes to pockets, tooling, no pockets, carving, inlays, etc...

Do you wish to claim that you are the originator of cases without pockets? Or cases with pockets? How about pockets with zippers on the side? Cases that close with a snap? Or did you originate cases made with leather? Were your first one to do a case with 14", 15", or any particular length pockets?

Were you the first person to use plumbing tubes lined with cloth on a cue case? No, you weren't. Both Jay Flowers and Dan Whitten did it before you.

So Mr. Justis, let's assume then that you were in fact the first person in the history of cue case making to attach a lid in the manner that you do. Is this then your total contribution to the technical side of cue case making?

If so then it is a fairly weak argument to make that if a person then copies that element that they are then guilty of copying your cases. Given all that you have taken from your predecessors, including Mr. Al Stohlman, whose book on case making you claimed to have read, I would think that you would allow others to use the one thing you have done to advance the art of making cue cases.

After reviewing the link provided by Mr. Barton as well as better one I found at his website here which shows all of the pictures in an easier format I have to say Mr. Justis that it appears as if you have taken the following elements of construction from Jay Flowers to use in your cases;

Pockets styles, tip tapper pouch, handles, riveted back piece, visible guidelines for tooling and general tooling style. Do you deny this? Now it's clear that your cases, especially the ones you make now, are different than any particular Jay Flowers case. But it's clear to me that you took quite a lot from Jay Flowers and used the Flowers case as a template for your own. Am I wrong? If so please point it out to us all in pictures.

Please be honest with yourself and honest with us all Mr. Justis. If you truly feel that the fact that Mr. Barton makes a case that is somewhat similar to what you make is copying you then do you also feel that since you made cases which were similar to what Jay Flowers made that you then copied him?

I sincerely hope that you will reply sir since you addressed me directly.

Roadie said:

Mr. Justis,

Do you honestly believe that the fact that the case done by Mr. Barton is a copy of yours just because of the fact that the closures are done in a similar manner?

Other than that and the fact that both case use pocket styles that were done by Mr. Jay Flowers prior to both of you I see enough differences to refute your claim that the J.Flowers is a "copy" at all.

For it to be a copy it must first of all have a nearly identical design. Surely you will not begin to claim that the design in your example is close to yours much less identical.

Are you claiming that you and only you have the right to make pockets and lids a certain way?

If so then why have you appropriated the pocket style of Jay Flowers cases?

From an old thread I have found this link that Mr. Barton posted - http://www.jbcases.com/cases/jflowers/history/

At this place he shows many Flowers cases and it is very clear that those cases show elements that were done well before you came on the scene.

For example this one:

Do you deny Mr. Justis that Jay Flowers was doing this type of pocket before you did?

Also Mr. Justis I see many cases done by you with different configurations when it comes to pockets, tooling, no pockets, carving, inlays, etc...

Do you wish to claim that you are the originator of cases without pockets? Or cases with pockets? How about pockets with zippers on the side? Cases that close with a snap? Or did you originate cases made with leather? Were your first one to do a case with 14", 15", or any particular length pockets?

Were you the first person to use plumbing tubes lined with cloth on a cue case? No, you weren't. Both Jay Flowers and Dan Whitten did it before you.

So Mr. Justis, let's assume then that you were in fact the first person in the history of cue case making to attach a lid in the manner that you do. Is this then your total contribution to the technical side of cue case making?

If so then it is a fairly weak argument to make that if a person then copies that element that they are then guilty of copying your cases. Given all that you have taken from your predecessors, including Mr. Al Stohlman, whose book you on case making you claimed to have read, I would think that you would allow others to use the one thing you have done to advance the art of making cue cases.

Please be honest with yourself and honest with us all Mr. Justis. If you truly feel that the fact that Mr. Barton makes a case that is somewhat similar to what you make is copying you then do you also feel that since you made cases which were similar to what Jay Flowers made that you then copied him?

I sincerely hope that you will reply sir since you addressed me directly.

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An unusually Bartonesque reply.

Jack Justis said:

You tell me if this is blatent copying. John will say I copied the Flowers case. For the record, Jay Flowers never produced a case with my lid design, pocket style or shoulder strap and pad configuration.



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Well that could be because some of those things weren't yours to begin with insofar as one can claim ownership of elemental parts of a cue case.

Lid Design: You difference is that you made one side permanently attached. Mr. Flowers did the same type of lid, same look, same function, but he made it where it opened on either side. You copied what Jay Flowers did and changed one small thing which may or may not be an improvement.

Mr. Barton adopted your method of making one side permanently attached and added a second snap. Did he improve on your method? Although I notice that most of your cases including some recent ones have one snap and some have two. Are all other case makers now not allowed to use snaps on the side to close the lid? When did you start using two snaps? Did anyone use two snaps before you did?

Pocket style: Clearly Mr. Flowers was doing the same pockets that you now do before you were even in business. I purchased my Flowers cases in the 80's and tow of them had the boxy style pockets with a zipper on the side - almost identical to the construction that you now use on your cases.

Shoulder Strap: Mr. Flowers was doing a shoulder strap that looked just like yours and functioned the same way. Your change was to add a buckle to an otherwise identical strap setup. Surely you can't think that you have a monopoly on straps that use buckles?

Handle: Mr. Flowers was clearly doing this handle before you were in business:



So you copied the way that the handle attaches to the case as well as the way it opens with three snaps to allow the shoulder strap to be retained.

Top Handle: The same thing applies here that you pretty much copied how the top handle on the Flowers cases was done. What reason do you have to put three snaps on the top handle Mr. Justis? Flowers cases were done that way for who knows what reason. Since you admit that you started making cases because you were told it would be an 8 week wait for a Flowers case what reason do you have for copying the way the top handle was done when it has no obvious function?

Pad: Sir, this picture below shows a Flowers case with a shoulder pad that is very similar to yours. While your may not be exactly the same it clearly shows that Jay FLowers was in fact doing shoulder pads in this vein before you.

Backpiece: You did not mention this but Mr. Flowers was doing cases with two rows of rivets before you were. In fact I had never before seen a cue case done this way before I purchased my Flowers cases. So unless I am wrong this method of doing a cue case was invented by Mr. Flowers and taken by you. Either way he did it before you did. So do you want to claim that this is not something you took from Mr. Flowers? Disclaimer: I have not read Al Stohlman's book on case making nor do I plan to. This method may well predate Mr. Flowers but his was the first cue case I owned with that design.



So if you are going to accuse Mr. Barton of copying because his cases are somewhat similar to yours in a few aspects then perhaps you should take a hard look at how much you used Mr. Flowers innovation to start your own case making career.

I noticed this tonight at Mr. Barton's website;

Here he shows a case that he calls the JJJ. He says that JJJ stands for Jay, Jack, and John and he gives you and Mr. Flowers credit for the influence on this case. http://www.jbcases.com/jjj.html



On your own website I can find not one single reference to Jay Flowers whom you liberally borrowed from in your own case designs.

Hmmm.... this cue gallery has given me some good reading material here at work:grin: this past week! First the QP and Varney Efren cue thingy and now this... Very Interesting indeed, I call a lock on this thread soon

Kowabunga fellas let another fella grumble,it was close but you guys seem to want it exact,its just a case of who copied whom,or almost copied whom,or improved on the general idea in a spirit of almost copy.So let a fella complain,and let a fella explain and somebody order a case or two either way you get a great case

hangemhigh said:

An unusually Bartonesque reply.

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No doubt about it, you hit the nail directly on the head!!

But, I suspect it is John Barton just the same!!!!:wink:

Nobody creates anything that didn't have some influences from something and somebody that came before.

hangemhigh said:

An unusually Bartonesque reply.

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:yes: :yes: :yes:

The pictures of the Justis and Flowers cases look very similar, Jack's cases look more modern and clean as you might expect from newer stuff these days and people making improvements. The lid, strap and pockets look alot alike and also the tooled pattern on them. So for Jack to say the Chinese are stealing his stuff, well they cannot steal from you what is not truly yours. Jack always says someone is copying him whether its in China or in the US of A as was stated in another post but he never really speaks about the similarities of his cases and Jay Flowers work. Is Jay Flowers still alive and how does he feel about this?, flattered or fuming?

Jack Justis said:

Thanks for your nice comments, they are noted.

The Chinese are great people and craftsman. Its John Barton that keeps sending me the creepy emails that I dislike.

Jay and I were pretty close friends.....Jay and John Collins were not close friends as he would like you to believe.

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Mr. Justis,

Mr. Barton states that he only met Mr. Flowers one time. I have not read anywhere that he has claimed to have been close with Mr. Flowers. In fact sir, he states plainly that it is his great regret that he and Mr. Flowers did not get together to work on the Flowers case project before Mr. Flowers passed away.

Mr. Barton has stated, as you are well aware of, that the J.Flowers line is in tribute to Jay Flowers. From what I can see on his website and yours the design more closely resembles common Flowers designs than they look like yours.

Again you make an accusation that the facts do not support. At least I have not see the support for your accusation that Mr. Barton has tried to make people feel that he was close to Mr. Flowers. Do you have any proof of such?

May I ask you as plainly as possible sir how your close friend felt about the fact that you used many elements of his case design in your own?

I believe that your statement about Mr. Flowers in this regard was that he was not happy that you started making cases that looked similar to his and that he quit the business because of it. Please correct me if I am wrong as I cannot locate the exact place where I read this statement from you.

Justis or Jay Flowers?









Mr. Justis, did you come up with the idea to make a holder for the tip tapper and put it on the case front or did Mr. Flowers have that idea before you did?

Did Mr. Flowers use the boxy type pocket before you did?

This is his;



This is yours;



In the event that you perhaps forgot that you made this case;

cases

Hello, my 2 cents only, there are people that make very nice cases, many makers out there, but jack justis just excells above the rest, you can try to duplicate flowers or dennis swift or even jacks cases. But the real deal is justis cases, let every man stand on his own merits........Jack stand up my man, don't let them shit on you, you worked hard for everything you got ,you people that like the over seas cases, you all must be blind. Set a justis next to any cases and people say .man look at that justis.... if I pissed off anybody ,maybe the truth hurts...........Rich...aka the skunk...

know it all said:

Hello, my 2 cents only, there are people that make very nice cases, many makers out there, but jack justis just excells above the rest, you can try to duplicate flowers or dennis swift or even jacks cases. But the real deal is justis cases, let every man stand on his own merits........Jack stand up my man, don't let them shit on you, you worked hard for everything you got ,you people that like the over seas cases, you all must be blind. Set a justis next to any cases and people say .man look at that justis.... if I pissed off anybody ,maybe the truth hurts...........Rich...aka the skunk...

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This is not in question. Mr. Justis' cases are in a class by themselves. He has clearly distanced himself from the Jay Flower's look in many distinctive ways. As one forum member here has pointed out the cases that Mr. Justis chose as examples clearly show that his own case has a far superior finished look than does the example of a J.Flowers case shown.

The point here in this thread is has Mr. Justis proven that Mr. Barton is making copies of Justis cases?

And why does Mr. Justis not acknowledge the design elements that he took from Mr. Flowers' cases?

If your assertion about a visual comparison is correct then you also make the point that no one is going to confuse a J.Flowers case with a Justis. That is the basis of determining whether something is a copy or not.

Mr. Barton has not done any of the decorative elements that define a modern Justis case.

Mr. Justis uses a lot of bold straight lines, he uses arrowheads a lot and fleur de lis stamps. He uses inlay and gold and silver accenting. He frequently does personalization using rectangular leather patches instead of tooling directly onto the body of the case. He uses the scrollwheel patterns a lot. These are all design elements that define a Justis case and separate it from all others.

It is my opinion that Mr. Justis has failed to make his case that Mr. Barton has copied him. Do you feel that Mr. Barton's J.Flowers line is easily misconstrued to be a Justis case?