Why avoid deflection like 'THE PLAUGE'?

Dead

I think your opinion that low deflection shafts are not quality solid shafts is crazy!

If you don't like them, then don't buy them. It's that simple. I don't knock you for not liking them, so don't knock those that do like them because they do.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

deadgearplyr said:

I believe pool should be learned to play with a tolerable amount of deflection that can be 'controlled' by the skilled.

I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'.

Click to expand...

So you mean if I learn to stroke "correctly", I can get rid of this junky LD shaft that Ive been running racks with for 10 years? COOL

Seriouly though, Its just like shooting a rifle. You CAN learn to shoot with a crooked barrel and adjust for it. But why would you want to?

Deflection happens. It's also not the amount of delfection that is an issue but that it is inconsistent.

No one is buying skill when they purchase a shaft that is low deflection or radially consistent. They are buying something that they can depend on.

Technology has improved just about every sport played. Why is pool the only one where some people go nuts over some innovations and not others.

The cloth, balls, and cue are all inert objects that do NOTHING by themselves. There is no product in pool that equates to an immediate increase in the skill level of the person using it - none.

Let's say for example that there were a cue that was able to add ten times more spin with zero deflection. Well the person wielding the cue would still have to learn to control that cue. They would have to develop the skill to handle it.

In other words the worst driver with the fastest car does not win races. But the best driver with the fastest car is a combination that is very tough to beat.

Deflection is the root of all evil!!!

It must be bad, I mean it's in all the ads, and I mean they reduced "it" by cyz%.... it MUST make me play better.

It's a catch phrase, a sales term, snake oil.... like:

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Ownership Mentality


Dude, buy what hits the way you like it and spend the time getting dialed into it.

If it's made of wood, it's not 100% consistent anyway. Every cue, shaft, tip and STROKE combination is unique. That's why this is an art even more than a science.



**edited to add: I don't buy anything Predator claims, and their shafts hits like a loose stack of legos. I think it's the ferrule / void combo. I have hit with a few other laminates, both flat and pie, and they hit fine. The OB I traded for on here hits like the nuts.****

Let me guess, this guy plays golf with wood shafted clubs and a straight bladed putter because it requires skill.

Probably drives a car without power steering or anti-lock brakes too.

More power to you bro, you are the one being left behind. The rest of us embrace technology and use it to our advantage. You should get a cell phone, they are pretty cool

Dead,

If insult is not your intention, then I don't understand this statement:

"I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'."

You actually insulted all the players out there who use LD shafts as well. And I can assure you, many of these are the best players in the world!


Also, I wanted you to know that we don't lie either, even though you obviously think we do:

"I support and love pool and want to help those who also love the game and to help others know the truth."

I understand your intentions, but your delivery method is flawed. You would be better served to focus on yourself and not try to save everyone else.



Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Hell yes, someone wants to go back to the cave man days where you hit the woman in the head and drag her by the hair to your laird. Man this is the 20th century and technology is in everything we do. So you think golfers should not improve their equipment, hunters should go back to the balls and muskets, and fisherman should use cane pole and corks. Technology has and is still improving our way of life and I'm all for that. As a player and competitor I'm always looking to improve my skills, by learning to rack, break, shooting, and mind control for concentration. The game has come a long ways since I started playing in the 50's and I would like to see every new young player receive every bit of information he can to improve the game and his skills.

Two things convinced me of the who deflection issue and how much of an issue it is. The first one was that I was at Predator's shop and got to see their testing in action. That proved to me right there that most cues deflect unevenly. So if you hold a cue one way and apply sidepsin it can deflect a lot more or less than if you hold it another way. So essentially you can have the best stroke in the world, be prefectly lined up, and still miss the shot because the cue deflected too much or too little for what you were guessing it would do.

The second thing that convinced me was Rafael Martinez. We sponsored him for a year and during that time we hired him to do a couple day's worth of clinics for our local pool team.

Rafael used a Predator shaft at the time and some of the members asked him point blank whether he thought the shafts were any good or not. He said that the shaft did in fact allow him to shoot with confidence that the ball was going to go where he was aiming it to go. He set up some tricky shots that required thin cuts and some with a lot of spin and let us compare our cues to his. It was obvious that the results were much more consistent with his Predator. He was not being paid by Predator and could choose to play with any shafts he wanted to. Predator did give him the shafts though. What he said was that he used the shafts because they work.

I still can't play with a Predator shaft though. I hate the way they feel.

What you are saying has merit though because deflection can also be controlled or adjusted by how you grip the cue. I believe Andy Segal wrote something about this but others know it as well.

If we agree with Predator's claims that reduced end mass lowers deflection then adding weight by gripping tighter should do the same thing.

This is where learning your equipment and what it can anc cannot do comes into play.

In the old days some players would mark up their cue with a little dot or cut a notch in the butt or do something to make sure the cue was always aligned the same way. In this way they were assuring themselves of the same hit each time.

I can only speak for myself, but I didnt buy my L/D shaft to purchase a skill(its not a jump cue). Sure I can use any good cue, but I like less deflection. I thought it was hype too, but now I cant put mine down. 2 enemies on the table, throw and deflection. You cant control throw, but you can at least "tame" deflection with a L/D shaft.

deadgearplyr said:

I don't like the direction pool is going when it comes to buying skill through equipment.

Why does it appear that every time I turn my head on this forum, I am realizing more and more people are too concerned about low deflection. I believe pool should be learned to play with a tolerable amount of deflection that can be 'controlled' by the skilled. Experience is something that can't be replaced and I say this to LD shaft worshippers out there, 'Go practice some more' or spend your money on lessons, you don't need an LD shaft to play well, you need a solid, quality hitting shaft. Any player who can actually play would be able to pick up just about A-N-Y cue out there no matter how junky, even off the wall. Why are ivory ferrules so popular? They deflect more and LBM! It's because the of the 'hit' and the person behind the stick that matters the most. This is where our focus should be placed. I think people are being mislead and are off track.

I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'.

Just as Mike Sigel used to say when commentating, "The center of the table is your FRIEND in pocket billiards". I feel the same way about deflection in my cue.

The bottom line: Don't be fooled! Deflection is a part of mastery and should be desired, not avoided!

Click to expand...

Dead,

I see where you are coming from....I am a bit of a purist or old-schooler if you will.....I still play blades in golf and I still don't have a low-deflection cue......and with both, I accept that it will cost me a shot here and there.....but to me, there is nothing better than a shot pured with a blade from a 180 yards to about 10 feet of the pin, and there is also nothing better than a 3 or 4 pack with an old school shaft....

IMHO, your post slants a bit towards making those with LD shafts out to be lesser players, where typically the best players can perform with any cue in their hands......even most of the pros in golf now play cavity backs, and I feel I will also be coming over to the dark side one day

miracle shafts

The makers will supply whatever the customer wants. Some of the "wonder shafts" do have a hit that reminds me of ramon wood. Some I am sure hit just fine. The thing is that hit is purely subjective and what I think is a good hit someone else will think is horrible and vice versa.

Low deflection matters more to a beginner or player that doesn't get to play often. Anyone that puts in a lot of hours with a shaft learns that shaft and how it plays, it matters little if it is a low deflection shaft or not. I played with a low deflection shaft many years before low deflection shafts were cool if end mass is really what matters. After a few months adjustment my ball making ability was the same as before, no better, no worse.

Hu

deadgearplyr said:

I don't like the direction pool is going when it comes to buying skill through equipment.

Click to expand...

You can't buy skill but given the technology now available you can improve your skill with better equipment.

Critics act like an LD shaft is some kind of miracle worker that give low-skill players a shortcut to learning how to play and somehow they are missing out on a learning experience. But then you're just making the case for them. People who actually use them have much more realistic expectations.

deadgearplyr said:

I don't like the direction pool is going when it comes to buying skill through equipment.

Why does it appear that every time I turn my head on this forum, I am realizing more and more people are too concerned about low deflection. I believe pool should be learned to play with a tolerable amount of deflection that can be 'controlled' by the skilled. Experience is something that can't be replaced and I say this to LD shaft worshippers out there, 'Go practice some more' or spend your money on lessons, you don't need an LD shaft to play well, you need a solid, quality hitting shaft. Any player who can actually play would be able to pick up just about A-N-Y cue out there no matter how junky, even off the wall. Why are ivory ferrules so popular? They deflect more and LBM! It's because the of the 'hit' and the person behind the stick that matters the most. This is where our focus should be placed. I think people are being mislead and are off track.

I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'.

Just as Mike Sigel used to say when commentating, "The center of the table is your FRIEND in pocket billiards". I feel the same way about deflection in my cue.

The bottom line: Don't be fooled! Deflection is a part of mastery and should be desired, not avoided!

Click to expand...

I would have to disagree. I have been playing pool for more the 50 years and I would hate to subject a new young player to the cues I started out using. The first good quality cue I had was an old Willie Hoppe cue that had a handle like a club. The next cue I got was a big leap in quality, it was a Paradise and played very well. I also got a Balabushka cue about the same time.

No matter how you look at it they could never hold a candle to the cues being built today. I have a hard time playing with the new low deflection shafts myself just because I have been playing with cues where I needed to compensate for so long it is built into my game. I would "HIGELY" recommend though anyone just learning to play to use one of the newer low deflection shafts.

Who needs all that guessing when there is something better. The good old days only exist in ones imagination. Even though I am an old guy I like modern things. The is no disputing that low deflection is better.

I don't believe LD shafts are either good or bad. I do believe they are different, and the shooter needs to know what to expect when applying side spin.

I had a shot come up Friday night in a local tournament that would have been impossible to make with an LD shaft. I actually needed the cue ball to squirt left before heading toward the object ball. I learned a neat little shot from Randyg that I actually was able to use in this instance, and ended up making the shot. I had people asking me after the match to show them the shot. So while I do not play with an LD shaft, I know how to use the shaft I have. And that is what really matters.

Steve

pooltchr said:

I don't believe LD shafts are either good or bad. I do believe they are different, and the shooter needs to know what to expect when applying side spin.

I had a shot come up Friday night in a local tournament that would have been impossible to make with an LD shaft. I actually needed the cue ball to squirt left before heading toward the object ball. I learned a neat little shot from Randyg that I actually was able to use in this instance, and ended up making the shot. I had people asking me after the match to show them the shot. So while I do not play with an LD shaft, I know how to use the shaft I have. And that is what really matters.

Steve

Click to expand...

Tap, tap, tap!!!

Steve,

I absolutely agree with your first statement in that LD Shafts are different, and everyone should choose for themselves.

However, I don't believe that there are shots that can only be performed with one type of cue shaft, LD or Conventional. You may have to aim them differently but the shots are possible with either type of shaft. The fact is that once the cue ball leaves the tip, it only has direction, speed, and spin. The only difference between the two types of shafts is direction, which is compensated for by aim.

I will have to ask Randy about that shot this week! His studio is about 10 minutes from the shop, and I have been playing him for years in leagues and tournaments!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

deadgearplyr said:

I don't like the direction pool is going when it comes to buying skill through equipment.

Why does it appear that every time I turn my head on this forum, I am realizing more and more people are too concerned about low deflection. I believe pool should be learned to play with a tolerable amount of deflection that can be 'controlled' by the skilled. Experience is something that can't be replaced and I say this to LD shaft worshippers out there, 'Go practice some more' or spend your money on lessons, you don't need an LD shaft to play well, you need a solid, quality hitting shaft. Any player who can actually play would be able to pick up just about A-N-Y cue out there no matter how junky, even off the wall. Why are ivory ferrules so popular? They deflect more and LBM! It's because the of the 'hit' and the person behind the stick that matters the most. This is where our focus should be placed. I think people are being mislead and are off track.

I think if people realized how to stroke the ball correctly, they wouldn't be so interested in finding a 'low deflection' shaft, but a 'quality shaft' made from 'quality wood' by a 'quality maker'.

Just as Mike Sigel used to say when commentating, "The center of the table is your FRIEND in pocket billiards". I feel the same way about deflection in my cue.

The bottom line: Don't be fooled! Deflection is a part of mastery and should be desired, not avoided!

Click to expand...

There are many things to dislike and criticize about where pool is headed and why but LD shafts is not one of them.

MANY TOP PLAYERS who use traditional all Maple shafts (non manufactured LD shafts) have allowed their 13MM+ shafts to be whittled down to a smaller size so that the deflection is reduced in their shafts.

They wouldn't allow their shafts to be whittled down to 12MM if it didn't improve their ability to play pool better.

There are dozens, maybe hundreds of things that you can do to improve your game that don't involve Low Deflection shafts and those things could easily improve your game far more than a low deflection shaft. That being said, a low deflection shaft has helped many players to improve their game.

For me, I like the idea that there are companies like OB Cues, Tiger X, Predator etc who are spending time and money to improve the traditional Maple shafts. The individual cue maker has enough problems designing and building solid, long-lasting beautiful, collectibel, good playing cues and do not have the time to devote to creating superior playing shafts.

From time to time, you hear people complain about this manufacturer using "cheap wood" to build a "XXXXX". There will always be issues of quality control in manufacturing anything and those issues are dealt with as they arise and in most cases are avoided before they happen.

It is my personal belief that all LD shaft manufacturers are committed to quality production of their shafts and will let nothing stand in their way to build better shafts. If it so happens that they can save money by different building methods/processes or by using more available and perhaps better woods, so be it.

If ANY manufacturer allows their quality to become undesirable because of quality of wood or any other reason, they won't be leading the pack for long.

FTR, I have been a traditional Maple shaft user for most of my life and I have finally succumbed to the additional precision of LD shafts and it was not their great marketing that persuaded me to use them.
JoeyA