To spin or not to spin that is the question

Bigkahuna

It's Good For Your Game!
Silver Member
I am reading my "Inside Pool" mag this morning and Bob Henning has an article titled "Points of Reference". The article is really about hitting the center of the cue ball.

Now if you do not understand collision induced throw or spin induced throw please do not comment in this thread. I don't mean any disrespect but if you do not know what these terms are then please get a book and understand them before reading this.

Nowadays, I am a seven in the APA and an A in any other leagues. When I was really getting started in developing the skills I have I would never use spin. I felt there were too many variables like chalk on the cue, scratched up balls, oil from fingers, aiming errors, squirt, throw and on and on. Back then I was a really good shot maker and had very sound fundementals due to some lessons I took from a pool hall owner. I was able to accurately pocket balls and was reasonable, (due to good speed control) at getting good position. My advise to anyone who asked was that spin was the death of all accurate shots. This is still my advise today for most players that play at less than A speed. Usually these players have far more to work on before using spin. Like just hitting the center of the ball usually due to poor stroke mechanics. I myself did not start using spin until I became a six in the APA.

I guess my question here stems from hitting the center of the cue ball. I myself practice long straight in shots. Sometimes, I practice to scratch by following the ball, (try that on a long straight in). There are times when I have stopped the ball dead, (no left or right movement at all) and I miss. Well, I did not hit center so the ball path was affected by throw from spin. So at my level I still fail to hit center ball at times and I am sure I can attribute this to not hitting center. However there are also times when I can attribute a miss to an error when inentionaly spinning the ball. I use spin at times nearly half the time. Obviously, cue ball control is the first reason, but then there is taking advantage of a little throw instead of a slight cut when I need to kill the cue ball and then correcting for collision induced throw and a couple of shots I am just comfortable with using spin. This all ads up to questioning myself as to how often I am spinning the ball? Or Perhaps, I should be questioning not spinning the ball? If I error at time not hitting center perhaps i should just spin more? Perhaps I just start putting some scotch tape on my tip and start practicing that way no spin no draw just rolling follow?

Just putting this out there for discussion. What do you all think? :thumbup: :bash: Some times I hate this game sometimes I love it!
 
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Interesting post, well written. I don't know how on topic my post is, but... Your post took me from wondering... to knowing.

I have a spin problem. I'm thinking I'm spinning 2/3 of my shots. I have tried to cut back, but I have failed.

I'm going to try practicing (ghost) for a solid 20 minutes straight without so much as a single sideways revolution. If I can make it through those agonizing 20, then maybe there's hope for me after all.
 
Your post brought back something I was taught about 40 yrs ago. :) Until I read your post it was something that I have grown accustomed to do without thought, but it so vividly made me remember, I'll share it. I'm just reminiscing here so if you want the short version just go to the last paragraph. :)

When I was 16 or 17 and beginning to get very serious about the game, I hung out at a pool room where the counter man would always shoot pool on table 1 by himself until someone needed help.

At the time he was about 65 or 70yrs old. The man would run hundreds of balls without a miss in between customers, phone calls, distractions, whatever. I'd sit for hours and watch him.

Now and again he'd get out of line and pop in long nearly straight shots in the heart of the pocket. This one day I said to him, that's one of the shots that stops me all the time, I seem to alway spin them out without realizing it.

He said to me, when you know you have a problem with a shot fix it. He said he did the same thing often until he began using ever so slightly a touch of inside english on those shots to (as he called it) "straighten them out". Since then it's become an important tool in the toolbox. FWIW.
 
I believe that all players regardless of there level should use side spin as little as possible.

I find myself playing a much better game when not using side spin and only use the vertical axis and speed control for position.
Of course, for every rule there is an exception... I'll use spin to correct a position. Sometimes you get to the table and have to deal with what was left for you and sometimes side spin is a must BUT 90% of the time you can run out any 9ball spread without side spin.....
 
Bigkahuna said:
... There are times when I have stopped the ball dead, (no left or right movement at all) and I miss. Well, I did not hit center so the ball path was affected by throw from spin. So at my level I still fail to hit center ball at times and I am sure I can attribute this to not hitting center. ...
One thing that might help with this problem is to play the shot with a little draw or follow. The unintended side has the most effect if the shot is a stun shot, and if you add a little top/bottom the object ball won't be thrown as much.
 
Bigkahuna...Just to throw this out there. There is certainly a possibility that you did not set the shot up DEAD straight, into the middle of the pocket. Perception can be off just a little, and you'll play a perfect stop shot on the CB, but miss the shot. The only way to tell for certain if the shot is perfectly straight, is to get your sight down at the table level, and 'hide' the OB behind the CB (in your sight line). Now peek over the top of both balls. You'll be able to see if the shot is dead straight or not.

This, of course, has nothing to do with your topic here, but I wanted to point out that sometimes a miss is due to the error I mentioned, rather than intentionally (or unintentionally) adding sidespin, resulting in CIT or SIT.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Bigkahuna said:
There are times when I have stopped the ball dead, (no left or right movement at all) and I miss. Well, I did not hit center so the ball path was affected by throw from spin. So at my level I still fail to hit center ball at times and I am sure I can attribute this to not hitting center!
 
Bob Jewett said:
One thing that might help with this problem is to play the shot with a little draw or follow. The unintended side has the most effect if the shot is a stun shot, and if you add a little top/bottom the object ball won't be thrown as much.

Thank you Bob It is real nice to have you here. One of these days I am going to get through all the articles archived on BD.

Skor and 3 and stop I am so confused to spin or not to spin?????????
 
Scott Lee said:
Bigkahuna...Just to throw this out there. There is certainly a possibility that you did not set the shot up DEAD straight, into the middle of the pocket. Perception can be off just a little, and you'll play a perfect stop shot on the CB, but miss the shot. The only way to tell for certain if the shot is perfectly straight, is to get your sight down at the table level, and 'hide' the OB behind the CB (in your sight line). Now peek over the top of both balls. You'll be able to see if the shot is dead straight or not.

This, of course, has nothing to do with your topic here, but I wanted to point out that sometimes a miss is due to the error I mentioned, rather than intentionally (or unintentionally) adding sidespin, resulting in CIT or SIT.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If I am playing a match I will usually get right down and look across the top of both balls to see if it is straight in. If the shot is off just a bit I might just put a little english on it for the correction instead of cut. I also use spin and or speed on bank shots. HMMMM, to spin or not to spin?????

When I set up drills for the straight in laser and paper reinforcement doughnuts are what I use to get it straight. I really like to do the follow it in for a check of my stroke.
 
FYI, I have lots of advice and resources related to English and throw here:


Squirt, swerve, and throw (in addition to perfect aim, perfect stroke, and perfect speed control) are what make pool so challenging and fun.

Regard,
Dave

Bigkahuna said:
I am reading my "Inside Pool" mag this morning and Bob Henning has an article titled "Points of Reference". The article is really about hitting the center of the cue ball.

Now if you do not understand collision induced throw or spin induced throw please do not comment in this thread. I don't mean any disrespect but if you do not know what these terms are then please get a book and understand them before reading this.

Nowadays, I am a seven in the APA and an A in any other leagues. When I was really getting started in developing the skills I have I would never use spin. I felt there were too many variables like chalk on the cue, scratched up balls, oil from fingers, aiming errors, squirt, throw and on and on. Back then I was a really good shot maker and had very sound fundementals due to some lessons I took from a pool hall owner. I was able to accurately pocket balls and was reasonable, (due to good speed control) at getting good position. My advise to anyone who asked was that spin was the death of all accurate shots. This is still my advise today for most players that play at less than A speed. Usually these players have far more to work on before using spin. Like just hitting the center of the ball usually due to poor stroke mechanics. I myself did not start using spin until I became a six in the APA.

I guess my question here stems from hitting the center of the cue ball. I myself practice long straight in shots. Sometimes, I practice to scratch by following the ball, (try that on a long straight in). There are times when I have stopped the ball dead, (no left or right movement at all) and I miss. Well, I did not hit center so the ball path was affected by throw from spin. So at my level I still fail to hit center ball at times and I am sure I can attribute this to not hitting center. However there are also times when I can attribute a miss to an error when inentionaly spinning the ball. I use spin at times nearly half the time. Obviously, cue ball control is the first reason, but then there is taking advantage of a little throw instead of a slight cut when I need to kill the cue ball and then correcting for collision induced throw and a couple of shots I am just comfortable with using spin. This all ads up to questioning myself as to how often I am spinning the ball? Or Perhaps, I should be questioning not spinning the ball? If I error at time not hitting center perhaps i should just spin more? Perhaps I just start putting some scotch tape on my tip and start practicing that way no spin no draw just rolling follow?

Just putting this out there for discussion. What do you all think? :thumbup: :bash: Some times I hate this game sometimes I love it!
 
Neil said:
FWIW- Me thinks you think too much. At your level of play, you know in your brain what you need to do. But if you consciously think about it while you are shooting, you will usually fail. Just tell yourself what you want to do, and then get down and do it.

Just pay attention to what you did, so you can 'program' your mind for the results. When you walk, you don't tell your knees to bend and your foot to pick up. Don't do that kind of thinking when you play pool either. Let your subconscious mind shoot the shot when it is ready to.

I have found that if you think to much about what you are doing when you shoot, some problem will happen.

I have a pre-shot routine and am a firm believer that when you are doing warm up strokes that is your time to get away from thinking and into a state of intense focus. Spin certainly can make things complicated bit it has benefits. HMMMM to spin or not to spin.
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, I have lots of advice and resources related to English and throw here:


Squirt, swerve, and throw (in addition to perfect aim, perfect stroke, and perfect speed control) are what make pool so challenging and fun.

Regard,
Dave

Thank you Dave I have seen most of you videos (I think).

I have always said learning to play pool is like peeling an onion.... You peel off a layer to realize there is another layer under that,, and there are a few tears to peeling an onion.
 
Great idea! We do the same thing in pool school!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Bigkahuna said:
When I set up drills for the straight in laser and paper reinforcement doughnuts are what I use to get it straight. I really like to do the follow it in for a check of my stroke.
 
Scott Lee said:
Great idea! We do the same thing in pool school!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Maybe I should teach what I know???? HMMM, then there is learning how to teach what you know. Then there is convincing someone that spending a hundred on pool lessons will do more for them than that new $1500 Predator cue will. HMMMM? Something I often think about...
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Spin is a powerful tool, and takes time to master.

Certainly does Coco I worked on it for months before I would put it into a game. But today as I am practicing here on my table there are few times I am missing because I used english. Of course I might miss position for a number of reasons.
 
Still Spinning

Read the first post my head is still spinning on this. Spin more spin less spin not at all. To spin or not to spin that is the question.....:thud: :shrug: :speechless: :dance:
 
Bigkahuna said:
Read the first post my head is still spinning on this. Spin more spin less spin not at all. To spin or not to spin that is the question.....:thud: :shrug: :speechless: :dance:

Spin.

Pros use spin for one simple reason, it makes the game easier. Nobody can win consistently at the pro level, imo, without using side english extensively.

English allows better control of the balls when used wisely. It should be allowing you to hit in a good speed range and still stay on line within that range.

Let's say you have a cut shot angle sending the cueball to the rail. It is usually easier and more controllable to stun the cueball to the rail and use sidespin to move the ball off the rail at a wider angle than it is to use draw to widen that same angle. The draw will require more speed and the resulting angle is much more speed dependent, going into the rail and, and coming off it if the draw extends to the rail. If you have to move the ball a long way you will have to pound it. The englished shot will stay on line for a much wider variation of speeds.

The same applies to follow shots or using inside off of rails.

Also the more sticky the table is the more powerful side spin becomes while draw and follow at angles off rails gets more difficult.
 
Bigkahuna said:
Read the first post my head is still spinning on this. Spin more spin less spin not at all. To spin or not to spin that is the question.....:thud: :shrug: :speechless: :dance:
IMO, it's a silly question with a ton of silly answers. Of course you should spin. This game would be awful if you didn't spin.

And IMO, it's absolutely wrong for anyone to suggest to "spin less." The better players are better because they can work with spin, not the opposite. If a player can't work with spin, they'll not get better. If they want to forever stay near the center, more power to them. They're just going to limit their advancement.

The pros are the pros for a reason. They're better! At everything. Including the use of every imaginable spin. And don't for one second think that the pros use less spin. They use the most. Simple observation proves it.

Fred <~~~ thinks all this feel good advice needs to take a back seat to reality
 
Bigkahuna said:
Read the first post my head is still spinning on this. Spin more spin less spin not at all. To spin or not to spin that is the question.....:thud: :shrug: :speechless: :dance:
I still don't understand the specific question you're trying to ask. If a shot calls for you to use spin, then spin the darn thing.

I think people over think the spin issue. I say do whatever it takes to maximize your chances of making the ball AND getting the required position. Using spin generally helps with the latter, and in many cases also helps with the former.

If you're having trouble adjusting for squirt and/or collision/spin-induced throw for fairly routine cut shots, then I say you're not practicing your shots with side spin nearly enough.
 
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