Having the Killer Instinct.(?)

Fast Lenny

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
Well i am writing this post to find out more on having a killer instinct and if thats what it really takes to be a good player.I play a good amount of hours with a variety of players,A-D players and i would like to be on the top end of the food chain but i know it not only takes hardwork and talent but do you have to want to kill your opponent also?.I mean i heard Willie Mosconis agent told him to put the knife in and twist,i heard that one time Allison Fisher was letting up and not taking a match seriously against a friend years ago and her parents were very upset about it.There are times when i feel bad for my opponent and i find myself letting up,kinda like my conscious is saying this isnt right,like guilt,especially when i am gambling and i am in someones pocket and it gets into 3 digits and i like them then i let up. They would probably take my money without a problem if they could and not bat an eye but i find myself sometimes being up in a match 5-1 in a race to 6 and let up and the guy is all of a sudden on the hill,i say to myself why am i letting up,close this match out and take it down.I have played alot of pool for cash,i have gamble in me i guess,love to play cards too(doesnt everyone?:) ),but i used to not have this problem until i played a kid a few years younger then me and he was what they call a fish.I would play him crazy games,sets of 8 ball for a benjamin and i would have to win 6 to his 3 games and for every ball he made he could take a ball of his choice off the table,i would give him pretty big spots to try to make it somewhat fair even though i still knew i was robbing him.After months and thousands lost by the kid it ended badly,he lost his cash,cue and he fired an air barrel to boot and some guys in the poolhall didnt take kindly to it but nothing happened but since then i havent seen him.I think that incident 6 months ago has something to do with this killer instinct problem,i had it and now its gone,GUILT(?).Perhaps to change that then maybe i should call him up and just play with him with no gambling just so he can learn and get better,i dont know whether he loved the game or the action,some people like to gamble regardless whether they can play or not.I mean was i wrong for i guess you could call it hustling?,isnt gambling apart of the game and apart of becoming "seasoned".In all the movies and books i read i always hear the stories and love them but am i wrong for doing these same things that we all admire,i mean who didnt admire Eddie Felson or in real life the guys like Jersey Red,Ronnie Allen,McCready and alot of other guys,perhaps Keith can chime in on this as he definately is seasoned and has probably taken tons of cash of guys,but i know theres a difference between fish and matching up against another "player".I know there are alot of seasoned guys on here,i myself have only been playing for a few years,alittle over 2 and play decent but i feel its a part of my game that i need to focus on,so any help or advice from you guys is appreciated.
 
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You cover a lot here.

I don't know why you would feel any guilt about trying to win a game, any game.

"Killer instinct", is, for me, synonymous with having heart.

If you don't have either, it's hard to win a game against anybody. For money or not. Especially when you are giving up big weight. It's hard to Hustle anybody when you are giving up weight. Hello; people give up weight, because it's understood that you are the favorite going into the match. Hardly a hustle, IMO.

And if your gambling Buddie got into trouble by losing money,maybe he has not a pool problem, but a gambling problem. There is a difference of course. And it sounds to me like he would lost his money playing with or without you.
 
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Fast Lenny said:
....There are times when i feel bad for my opponent and i find myself letting up,kinda like my conscious is saying this isnt right,like guilt...... (edited by JDB for brevity)
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I think this is a common problem for a lot of players and can become an issue with them reaching their top level. I don't gamble much; however I have found myself feeling bad for someone in a tournament because they are playing poorly and then turning a big lead into a loss.

I think for tournaments it all comes down to forgetting about you opponent all together and playing the table, as they say. This removes your opponent from the equation.

I think gambling is different. When I do gamble I try to ensure that game is even, or slightly tilted against me. I also won't play for a large amount of money unless I know the person and I know the outcome of the game will not have a significant impact on them if they lose. I know myself and I wouldn't put myself in that position to start with. Although I don't think it is necessarily my responsibility to do this, I know I sleep better at night.
 
at risk of sounding silly

The solution is as simple as not making games that you aren't comfortable with. When you know the guy is betting the family rent money and that you will feel lousy taking it, don't play him or keep the stakes very low if you just want somebody to play with.

Not making bad games is a major key to winning. If you have a conscience chewing on your butt every time you bend over to shoot you are going to have trouble closing. No different than when you feel you have made a major mismatch setting the spot and are in over your head, when your mind is on two tracks you can't focus on getting the job done.

Hu
 
Sounds like one of your primary motivations for winning has changed with this event of busting a player dead broke.

There is nothing wrong with having morals. (Some see things differently and thats alright too. To each his own.) It is harder to change your morals than it is finding a motivating factor that works.

You need to think of all the different factors that you use for motivation. There are many different situations that inspire our play. Think about it.

Some guys play inspired pool when a hot chick is on the next table, or when it is a top dog, or when it is a loud mouthed braggart, or a fish. Now, one of those primary motivators in your arsenal has got up and walked off.

What motivators can you use to replace the one that has walked off? You need to identify each and every motivator you have ever used.

You have more of these motivators in your arsenal than you think, you just don't remember using them. Think of every playing situation you have been in. Think of all the types you could be in. You will find a motivation factor that will work.

At the same time for this new motivation factor to work you have to put the self defeating thoughts to rest. The only way to do this is to ask yourself in all honesty questions concerning this, and truthfully answer them.

Why does this bother me? What situations bring up this frame of mind? Where does this happen in a match? When does this happen in the match?

As another poster alluded to this gambler and sounds like he fits the bill as an abnormal gambler. If your getting the nutts everytime should you feel guilty? Should you feel guilty when your opponent willingly lays down on the sacrificial alter? This player doenst mind the abuse with what he has demostrated thus far. If you feel remorse for raping this guy...remember you can't rape the willing.
 
Fast Lenny said:
Well i am writing this post to find out more on having a killer instinct and if thats what it really takes to be a good player.I play a good amount of hours with a variety of players,A-D players and i would like to be on the top end of the food chain but i know it not only takes hardwork and talent but do you have to want to kill your opponent also?.I mean i heard Willie Mosconis agent told him to put the knife in and twist,i heard that one time Allison Fisher was letting up and not taking a match seriously against a friend years ago and her parents were very upset about it.There are times when i feel bad for my opponent and i find myself letting up,kinda like my conscious is saying this isnt right,like guilt,especially when i am gambling and i am in someones pocket and it gets into 3 digits and i like them then i let up. They would probably take my money without a problem if they could and not bat an eye but i find myself sometimes being up in a match 5-1 in a race to 6 and let up and the guy is all of a sudden on the hill,i say to myself why am i letting up,close this match out and take it down.I have played alot of pool for cash,i have gamble in me i guess,love to play cards too(doesnt everyone?:) ),but i used to not have this problem until i played a kid a few years younger then me and he was what they call a fish.I would play him crazy games,sets of 8 ball for a benjamin and i would have to win 6 to his 3 games and for every ball he made he could take a ball of his choice off the table,i would give him pretty big spots to try to make it somewhat fair even though i still knew i was robbing him.After months and thousands lost by the kid it ended badly,he lost his cash,cue and he fired an air barrel to boot and some guys in the poolhall didnt take kindly to it but nothing happened but since then i havent seen him.I think that incident 6 months ago has something to do with this killer instinct problem,i had it and now its gone,GUILT(?).Perhaps to change that then maybe i should call him up and just play with him with no gambling just so he can learn and get better,i dont know whether he loved the game or the action,some people like to gamble regardless whether they can play or not.I mean was i wrong for i guess you could call it hustling?,isnt gambling apart of the game and apart of becoming "seasoned".In all the movies and books i read i always hear the stories and love them but am i wrong for doing these same things that we all admire,i mean who didnt admire Eddie Felson or in real life the guys like Jersey Red,Ronnie Allen,McCready and alot of other guys,perhaps Keith can chime in on this as he definately is seasoned and has probably taken tons of cash of guys,but i know theres a difference between fish and matching up against another "player".I know there are alot of seasoned guys on here,i myself have only been playing for a few years,alittle over 2 and play decent but i feel its a part of my game that i need to focus on,so any help or advice from you guys is appreciated.
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First off, holy crap man did you lose your enter key????? Paragraphs! Paragraphs!

Secondly don't ever let up. Your not going to kill them if you win by a lot. Secondly its a bit of an insult if your letting your opponent back in, almost the pool equivalent of showboating in a boxing match. Your saying that you can give them a few games and it won't matter.

Finally you shouldn't feel bad for these guys. They made the choice to play and/or gamble and by doing so they always run the risk of being crushed. Yesterday I lost a set 11-2. What did I do? I won the next set 11-7. If a person can't take crushing loss, or any loss, then stop playing pool. Or any sport for that matter.
 
Thanks for the replies,i just think maybe i should play hard regardless,if the person is willing to gamble then its not my problem if they are in over there head or get upset.There has to be a winner and a loser when something is on the line,i just used to not have anything holding me back,i am pretty unemotional at the table,i dont show much and am a gracious winner or loser,i expect people to do the same but most of the time they whine and get pissed,it bothers me.I dont fall for shark tactics if thats what it is but i do feel bad if i like the person but i guess its just business.
 
well i can say 1 thing from life experience... i am a girl... and it has been known that a few guys may or may not take women seriously on a pool table... however i can tell you that it both irritates me and elates me when a man does this...

1. it is extremely insulting to have someone not take you seriously...
2. it is highly gratifying at the end of a session to have that person peel off his entire bankroll to you because while 2 people were playing in that session only one was taking it seriously and going for the jugular...

it is a catch 22 but the pros definitely outweigh the cons, my advice to you, don't fall victim to having a conscious because someday it will cost YOU your entire bankroll... because if you exhibit even a shread of compassion then you will ultimately end up losing to someone that is looking to rob you and used your vulerability and compassion against you.

--but thats just me... and i am mediocre at best
 
I hate to say it, but I've been guilty of letting up. Not because I was being arrogant, or anything. I just wanted to prove a point, and not have the stigma of the heartless player who took the broke guys money.

I was working part time in a great pool room that had action every day. I was working my way up the ranks and everyone loved taking my money along the way. It didn't bother me all that much, I made a good living as a plumbing contractor, and I didn't play for too much. Then when I started beating some of the old school regulars the challenges/barking started. Most of these guys didn't have a lot of money, but they loved to talk smack. So I would get on the table with them, get a big enough lead for them to know they were in trouble, then slow up slightly until I was enough winner to pay the time and a few bucks for gas. I just didn't have the heart to take the money knowing they didn't have too much. Sorry, that's just how I'm wired.

The only person that ever caught on to me was my teacher Andy. He knows how I play, and would get pissed when I did this, but knew what my point was.

I sometimes found myself doing this in tournaments also, which REALLY got me mad!. If it were in a room I played in a lot, and won a lot, I would ease up from the guilt factor, and not wanting "the guys" to be pissed at me. That's probably why I won a lot of tourneys in rooms where I didn't know anyone.

Gerry
 
Having a killer instinct, or as said earlier, having big heart is needed, but before those are really needed one needs to have that gap between good and bad days very small and solid. Then you'll win or loose your games by having or missing your heart on that very moment.
 
wannaplaySOME? said:
however i can tell you that it both irritates me and elates me when a man does this...

1. it is extremely insulting to have someone not take you seriously...
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You have to earn respect, male players sometimes do not take other male players seriously till they earn their respect by playing well against them. Do not use gender as an excuse, we all want respect and we ALL have to earn it, it is not handed out like chalk.
 
If it feels bad, don't do it

I think the answer is to never let up at all --- just stop taking his money if it makes you feel bad. If you're playing someone for money, and you start to feel like you've won enough, tell him you'll only play him another game/set for free. If he won't play you for free, tell him you quit. If he gets on you for quitting on him while you're ahead, take a little more of his money and repeat your offer. You have nothing to feel bad about in this situation; if you're taking his last dollar, you're only taking it because he doesn't seem to want it.

-Andrew
 
Very well said ...

pillage6 said:
You have to earn respect, male players sometimes do not take other male players seriously till they earn their respect by playing well against them. Do not use gender as an excuse, we all want respect and we ALL have to earn it, it is not handed out like chalk.
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You hit the nail on the head. You have to earn it on the table, that is where players respect it most. Even if you are not too bad, but an idiot mentally, the players will 'reveal' that to ya when playing you, and you are left trying to figure out what went wrong! ...lol Back in the old days, nobody told you nothing, you had to figure it out yourself, or figure out how you could find out, not like today, where lots of people will 'clue you in' as to what you did that was wrong, and lots of players don't like that because it knocks their steady money action.

It's called 'coming up through the ranks' or 'learning the ropes' or being a
'tenderfoot'. If you want to be judged as a player, you have to perform as a player, no matter what sex. Granted, I am guilty of taking a woman's skill for granted, but my standards for judging skill is usually much different than theirs.

I don't play women often, maybe now and then in a handicapped tournament, and I only gamble with the best women shooters if they have it in them to gamble. For example, I gambled with the National Women's BCA Champion, and gave her the breaks and the 7. She wins all kinds of women's tournaments, but has a hard time getting into the money in an Open tournament locally. Most women players do not work on position play, banking (especially more than 1 rail), kicking, jump shots, and breaking enough to be considered a serious player. You have to do everything well, not just some things.
 
First, you need to be mentally prepared for what you're going to do BEFORE you find yourself in action.

Second, I think there is a point of no return that you need to cross to get the killer instinct. Killer instinct isn't something you lose. Once you cross that line there's no looking back. Killer instinct is busting someone then laughing about it. That's right, laughing. Can you stomach that?
 
This is why I quit gambling on pool. I found myself feeling bad if I won too much or lost too much.

Now I just play the table and the game and let the chips fall where they may. I try to play as well as I can all the time without thinking about the consequences. I must admit, however, that I still have lapses and let up or lose concentration for no apparent reason.
 
Egg McDogit said:
First, you need to be mentally prepared for what you're going to do BEFORE you find yourself in action.

Second, I think there is a point of no return that you need to cross to get the killer instinct. Killer instinct isn't something you lose. Once you cross that line there's no looking back. Killer instinct is busting someone then laughing about it. That's right, laughing. Can you stomach that?
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Well i think this is what sets the pros and shortstops apart from some of the average players,i think you need that to go to another level of play.When your at the table you shouldnt have negative thoughts or feel sorry,your supposed to just play the table and get out without thinking how the opponent feels.I think there is a difference between heart and killer instinct,heart is not giving up and killer instinct is not letting up,but people can look at it differently i guess.

As for others feeling the sameway that i have i am glad i am not the only one, yes i have laughed when i robbed some guys but when they had the money and werent bad losers i was fine with it.The guys who get upset and the ones i know dont have money are the guys i let up on mostly,so its not everyone but there are just some people you play with and you like and others that you despise so taking there money is enjoyable.I guess i just wonder how i can have that killer instinct against everyone i play whether friend,foe,rich or poor,its not supposed to matter.I am sure we all remember when in the COM Newman says to Cruise that you never let u on anybody that its business even though Cruise said it was only $60 and the guy was on his last leg,and when he let up Newman left him to get smacked around,a hard lesson learned i guess.

As for the female players,there are a few in the room that i like to call home, Gallery Billiards,the best player in the room who is female is a girl named Morgan Steinman.I would never let up on her,she plays too good,if you do a player search she has won tournaments all over the country and just recently won the womens amateur open at VF.She has alot of heart and the killer instinct so it has nothing to do with whether someone is male or female. Whether she wins or loses she has composure and that is what i try to do,lose and win with grace and not let my emotions get the best of me,but i know she dont let up no matter who it is so i think i could learn something there.
 
I have learned to recognize situations that make me uncomfortable:

I don't gamble with guys who are unable to lose;
I don't gamble with self-destructive gambling addicts;
I won't deal with sharking, woofing, intimidation tactics, etc.;
I don't gamble unless a player is willing to give me an honest chance to win;

Put yourself in these situations, and it's easy to let up, because the motivating factor becomes something other than the game itself.

Case in point, I beat this girl out of a hundred a few weeks back at a bar. I was there to drink a beer, not play, much less gamble. But she's the one that comes to me...

Well, it was obvious she couldn't win, and I set the bar at a $100. When I won a hundred I told her I quit. She said, "Does it help you to know that my daddy is rich?" I said, what I do had nothing to do with her daddy.

I'm not a pro and I don't depend on her money for a living, nor was I getting anything out of the challenge. So I quit.

Avoid situations that make you uncomfortable, and make pool a battle of skills rather than a battle of egos... I bet you you won't be letting up at all.;)
 
I am not sure I agree with killer instinct and heart being synonymous, although they can intersect at times.

I don't have as much killer instinct as I should. Mike always tells me that I am too nice at the table. I am finding things to compliment instead of the opposite. I know one player from CA that was told by her boyfriend to find anything about her opponent, ANYTHING on them to HATE. Now I am just not that kind of person. There's enough hate in the world to go manufacture more.

If I lose because I am blase', then that is my fault. I have to admit, I have been motivated by some players' attitudes or personal things that got under my craw, so yes, I did concentrate and it did bring out the killer instinct there.

I do just play for fun sometimes because I have never needed the pool winnings to subsist. I guess I would be more serious if that were the case. I know I am supposed to feel that level of commitment to any game or match, but sometimes I just can't force it.

I have been told a few times that I am intimidating to watch because I look so serious when I am at the table and bearing down. I was really intrigued because I really didn't think I looked that fierce, but apparently when I am focused and concentrating, it looks that way.

Heart, on the other hand, looks to me like staying with it no matter what, against all odds and obstacles, whether it is being a huge underdog matchup-wise, or being down in the set, or playing on your last barrel.

I think what you are discussing are 2 separate issues - letting someone else in at the table and the quandary/moral dilemma you are having about someone you busted. Someone else said it best - you did not force them, you were giving them a spot, they will have to pay their dues, and it would have probably happened anyway, with or without you. DON'T let this affect your game. Always strive to maintain a winner's attitude when at the table.
 
You can have all the "Killer instinct" and "heart" attainable, and still lose.

Your opponent can get lucky (especially in 9 ball) and keep you off the table or at the least, kicking when it's your turn. I've seen 'C' players win 4 games in a row against better players, too many times, by pure 9 ball luck.

When you stop thinking about the table and start thinking about your opponent, you've set yourself up to fail. Too much clutter in the mind to focus on the shot.

Letting up on your opponent when your ahead is also 'hiding' your speed. Your opponent may count on that on the next matchup when asking for more weight.
IMO
 
Thanks everyone for there opinions on the subject,it has been really helpful,i played yesterday with about 4 different people for the cash,2 in the pool room and 2 in the bar and i didnt let up at all,but then none of the stakes per game or set was over $20,i think its more of a problem when i think the guy cant afford to lose or is take a hit over a $100,so i just have to work on it.I also have had this problem in tournaments so i have to work on that because i feel sorry for the opponent when they get a bad roll and there my friend,i just have to seperate things and become a killer,because if i want to achieve a higher level i think i need that along with heart which i feel i have.Thanks again everyone for there post.:)
 
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