14.1 ruling confusion

pulzcul

pulzcul

"Chasinrainbows"
Silver Member
OK Here's the layout. Were both on 2 fouls. He fouls a third time and loses 15 plus the 3 fouls for 18. I, as the incoming player opt to have him rebreak. He then places the cue ball in the corner of the kitchen pocket [hooked], and taps it with his cue, taking a foul. Rules state that once you have taken the 3 foul+15 you are cleared of fouls, but I'm still on 2. Also the rules state that a breaking foul does not constitute a foul under the 3 foul rule. So by tapping the cue ball he took a 2point break foul and I'm standing there with a hooked cue ball and 2 fouls. So I'm now the breaker right? Do I do the same thing? Something screwy here!
 
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Cue ball has to be shot past the head string for a legal shot.

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
Cue ball has to be shot past the head string for a legal shot.

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.
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I agree. So although it's unsportsmanlike conduct would you call it a forfeit? Unless it's a tournament I wouldn't. I'd tap back and take my third foul probably resulting in a forfeit for him anyway.

Never heard anyone pull this stunt before.
 
He can't do what he did.

He must do a legal shot out of the kitchen.
 
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Not only is this not allowed, but it's offensive. The only thing a player could do that would be even more insulting and offensive than this to me would be to use a jump cue during a game of 14.1.
 
pulzcul said:
OK Here's the layout. Were both on 2 fouls. He fouls a third time and loses 15 plus the 3 fouls for 18. I, as the incoming player opt to have him rebreak.
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There is currently no option. He must shoot an opening break shot. The option went away in 2008 or so.
He then places the cue ball in the corner of the kitchen pocket [hooked], and taps it with his cue, taking a foul. Rules state that once you have taken the 3 foul+15 you are cleared of fouls, but I'm still on 2. Also the rules state that a breaking foul does not constitute a foul under the 3 foul rule. So by tapping the cue ball he took a 2point break foul and I'm standing there with a hooked cue ball and 2 fouls. So I'm now the breaker right? Do I do the same thing? Something screwy here!
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No, you are not the breaker for three reasons.

Because he was shooting an opening break shot, he must drive two object balls and the cue ball to a cushion after the cue ball makes contact. Failure to do so is a special foul -- a breaking violation -- and he loses two points. In addition you may require him to shoot the opening break shot again.

Secondly, when a player has ball in hand behind the head string and he contacts the cue ball but does not drive the cue ball over the head string, it is a foul and the cue ball remains in hand for his opponent. But this penalty does not apply because the 2-point breaking violation is dominant.'

Thirdly, you do not become the "breaker" -- that is, required to shoot an opening break -- except in two situations: 1) you are determined by a lag to be the breaker or 2) you commit a third consecutive foul.
 
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sjm said:
Not only is this not allowed, but it's offensive. The only thing a player could do that would be even more insulting and offensive than this to me would be to use a jump cue during a game of 14.1.
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Yes I find it offensive but mostly because it demonstrates that the shooter does not have enough respect for the game to learn the rules. As the opponent, I would not be offended. I would just point out the breaking violation rule, take two more points off his score, and ask him to please break again.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Yes I find it offensive but mostly because it demonstrates that the shooter does not have enough respect for the game to learn the rules. As the opponent, I would not be offended. I would just point out the breaking violation rule, take two more points off his score, and ask him to please break again.
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In addition to Bob's rules comments, the player obviously does not know or has not read the breaking rules and requirements.

Bill Stock
 
sjm said:
Not only is this not allowed, but it's offensive. The only thing a player could do that would be even more insulting and offensive than this to me would be to use a jump cue during a game of 14.1.
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Chuckle. First guy I ever saw use a jump cue in a Straight Pool tournament match was Dick Capoto, whose family owns The Cue Club on Teal Ave. in Syracuse, NY. It was when the very short jump cues with phenolic tips were becoming popular. The tournament was in Binghamton, NY at The Pocket Billiard Lounge on West State Street. Raised a few eyebrows, I can tell you! I don't think I've seen it happen since. And, for the record, it's offensive to me, too, Stu.
 
So if jumping is not illegal what is the problem? I have seen a few players jump in 14.1 when that was their best option of continuing their inning at the table. I am assuming the reason some would be offended at the use of a jump cue is that it is supposed to be the purest of most pool games and the introduction of anything "new" may bother some. Just wondering.........
 
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As has been duly noted by the experts, basically the remedy is 2 point penalty and your opponent must proceed with a legal opening break.

While this could be considered an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty since he did this intentionally, it is kind of tough to do so because the penalty for UC is discretionary so it is usually only called when there is a ref or TD presiding.

The penalty could be loss of match, but not necessarily. It is at the discretion of the ref/TD. They would probably take into consideration the seriousness of the violation. For instance, while your opponent intentionally corner hooked you, he may not have intentionally broken the rules. It is possible he didn't know the rule and thought he was just pulling something clever but legal. Perhaps someone did it to him once and got away with it. Loss of match is a major penalty, just short of getting DQ'd from the tournament.
 
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mlfield said:
So if jumping is not illegal what is the problem? I have seen a few players jump in 14.1 when that was their best option of continuing their inning at the table. I am assuming the reason some would be offended at the use of a jump cue is that it is supposed to be the purest of most pool games and the introduction of anything "new" may bother some. Just wondering.........
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Clarification. I'm OK with jumping in 14.1, just not jump cues.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
As has been duly noted by the experts, basically the remedy is 2 point penalty and your opponent must proceed with a legal opening break.

While this could be considered an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty since he did this intentionally, it is kind of tough to do so because the penalty for UC is discretionary so it is usually only called when there is a ref or TD presiding.

The penalty could be loss of match, but not necessarily. It is at the discretion of the ref/TD. They would probably take into consideration the seriousness of the violation. For instance, while your opponent intentionally corner hooked you, he may not have intentionally broken the rules. It is possible he didn't know the rule and thought he was just pulling something clever but legal. Perhaps someone did it to him once and got away with it. Loss of match is a major penalty, just short of getting DQ'd from the tournament.
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Exactly the case here. When I questioned him he told me a story about someone doing it to him. .
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
It not only could, it does. ;)
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I believe "could" is the more correct term here. If I have it correctly, after the third foul, the incomming player has the OPTION to re-rack or play the table as it lies, although playing it as it lies is probably not the best option in most cases.
 
pulzcul said:
... What I didn't know at the time was I have the OPTION to take the table as it lies after his 3rd foul OR make him rerack. ..
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As mentioned above, there is no option for the seated player under the current rules. The three-fouler must rebreak. The other player has no say in the matter. The old-time championships were never played with a "choice" rule.

In about 2000 the rogue "choice" rule got inserted into the rule book apparently without any Rules Committee decision. That bogus rule was removed in the January 2008 revision of the World Standardized Rules.
 
Mr Hoppe said:
... If I have it correctly, after the third foul, the incomming player has the OPTION to re-rack or play the table as it lies, although playing it as it lies is probably not the best option in most cases.
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You do not have it correctly. There is no choice.
 
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