Facing "A" joint parts?

Tommy-D

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
> In the other thread about connecting screws,I noted that everyone agreed that the accuracy of the facings was critical to not developing run-out. Can we discuss methods and particular tooling for this process? Are there specific lathe tools used for this,and is the long-nosed live center that Barringer recommends more suitable for this than a larger,stiffer one? Are we even talking about facing between centers,or just up as close to the chuck as your collets allow? Is anything within .001 TIR acceptable when indicating the part to be faced? Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> In the other thread about connecting screws,I noted that everyone agreed that the accuracy of the facings was critical to not developing run-out. Can we discuss methods and particular tooling for this process? Are there specific lathe tools used for this,and is the long-nosed live center that Barringer recommends more suitable for this than a larger,stiffer one? Are we even talking about facing between centers,or just up as close to the chuck as your collets allow? Is anything within .001 TIR acceptable when indicating the part to be faced? Tommy D.
Click to expand...

Let the fun begin;)
One of the problems that I am faced with is the ID bore in my spindle. It is very rough and hard to accurately measure and put a collet in there.

So, you can face between centers but then how do you hold the back end of your handle, or joint end of your prong when you bore and tap them? You can get the end in the chuck true but have no real accurate way of indicating the other end inside of the spindle. The chuck I have on the back of my headstock works well only after my cue is assembled.

Here it comes.....ready......the use of a STEADY REST for facing, drilling, tapping, etc.

I use a 3/8 carbide single point facing tool. I have read somewhere that if you are less than .005ths out of round after joining the handle/prong (which may sound like a football field to many:) ) you should be okay. I strive for less. Open for discussion on that point...

But HOW do you accurately indicate the face?

Is it not true that even though you face across the wood and indicate it--that it will be true to your cut (your cross-slide)...but how do you know that the cue is not at an angle?? Therefore the face could still be non-perpendicular to the od of the cue?

This is easy to measure when you have a ground piece of straight stock chucked up that you can sweep on 3 sides for flatness, roundness, and straightness.

Even if you put the assembled cue in both chucks and indicate both ends to be running true, how do you know that the entire cue is not on an angle since the indicator is only touching one point on the cue??

Chris
 
Last edited:
Poulos Cues said:
So, you can face between centers but then how do you hold the back end of your handle, or joint end of your prong when you bore and tap them? You can get the end in the chuck true but have no real accurate way of indicating the other end inside of the spindle. The chuck I have on the back of my headstock works well only after my cue is assembled.
Click to expand...

Face both ends of the forearm between centers. Drill a shallow hole and tap it 5/16-18 in the small end. Take a short section of allthread and insert it in the hole. Screw a shaft or similar piece of wood with a 5/16-18 insert onto it. If both faces are dead true, the whole thing will now spin true, and you can grab it with the chuck at the back of your lathe, or use collets, etc. to true it up. you can do the same thing with handle stock. Later on, you can just bore out the small threads since most joints are 3/8".

If the tenon is on the forearm, I still true and face the last few thousandths between centers before installation.
 
Good question and should bring up a lot of interesting ideas. As always many ways to skin a cat, but here's the way I do it. Chuck up a dead center and indicate it to 0. Bring up your live center and make sure they are dead even. Left and right is easy to adjust. Up and down will take shimming the tailstock. Here's where the quality of you lathe pays off.
Then face off the what ever you want dead square. Both handle and front. Depending on which way you bore or tenon depends on how you cut the next part. Don't worry about the little material left right next to the center. It will get drilled or bored out somewhere along the line. I use to use a long phenolic collet that I had bored out to match the taper of my fronts at this stage, but now I use a steady rest. Chuck up and indicate one end of the piece. With the other end held by the live center, bring up the arms of the steady rest and snug them down. Pull out the live center then indicate the piece in the stead rest. If both ends of the piece and the face of the tenon are running under .001, you can pretty much consider everything square and true. Works for me. Then drill tap bore thread or what ever else you like to do. A steady rest with ball bearings is great, but I do it with the stock brass pins. I don't have them against wood, always on phenolic. Looking forward to hearing all the other different ways of doing this, cause it's a royal pain in the butt.
 
Tommy-D said:
> In the other thread about connecting screws,I noted that everyone agreed that the accuracy of the facings was critical to not developing run-out. Can we discuss methods and particular tooling for this process? Are there specific lathe tools used for this,and is the long-nosed live center that Barringer recommends more suitable for this than a larger,stiffer one? Are we even talking about facing between centers,or just up as close to the chuck as your collets allow? Is anything within .001 TIR acceptable when indicating the part to be faced? Tommy D.
Click to expand...

Very Good Thread, like other posters have said this should very interesting, and lot of good Idea's should come out of it.
 
cutter said:
Good question and should bring up a lot of interesting ideas. As always many ways to skin a cat, but here's the way I do it. Chuck up a dead center and indicate it to 0. Bring up your live center and make sure they are dead even. Left and right is easy to adjust. Up and down will take shimming the tailstock. Here's where the quality of you lathe pays off.
Then face off the what ever you want dead square. Both handle and front. Depending on which way you bore or tenon depends on how you cut the next part. Don't worry about the little material left right next to the center. It will get drilled or bored out somewhere along the line. I use to use a long phenolic collet that I had bored out to match the taper of my fronts at this stage, but now I use a steady rest. Chuck up and indicate one end of the piece. With the other end held by the live center, bring up the arms of the steady rest and snug them down. Pull out the live center then indicate the piece in the stead rest. If both ends of the piece and the face of the tenon are running under .001, you can pretty much consider everything square and true. Works for me. Then drill tap bore thread or what ever else you like to do. A steady rest with ball bearings is great, but I do it with the stock brass pins. I don't have them against wood, always on phenolic. Looking forward to hearing all the other different ways of doing this, cause it's a royal pain in the butt.
Click to expand...

When the piece is long enough to go through both chucks I then use that method. When the piece is to short I use a steady rest that has a 1.375" ball bearing centered. I have different size delrin colletts to fit this bearing and mearly slip on the proper size collett and put into the already centered bearing. I then can face or bore and tap at ease. To use this method it is imperative that your lathe is set up correctly and is level. Very few home shop machinists or cue makers properly tune their lathe so that it will bore and drill straight. It might at the jaws but the farther away from the jaws the farther out the tolerances are going to be if the lathe bed is twisted or the head is not aligned with the rails and carriage.

Dick
 
Precision Facing

I would suggest that the first step is to insure that your headstock is exactly
parrallel with the center line of your lathe bed. Once this is verified the next step is to check that the cross-slide is exactly perpendicular to the headstock bore center-line. On my Cueman Deluxe lathe the off-center of the headstock to the center-line of the bed was 40 thousandths at 18" out from the check. It was impossible to cut a face exactly perpendicular to what ever I had mounted up in the headstock chucks.

I discovered this when I had a "test bar" (1.250" X 24" 6061-T6 aluminum) made by having a machine shop grind the bar stock in a cylindrical grinder and hold the tolerance to less than 1/2 thousands taper over the 24". By mounting the test bar in both chucks you can run an indicator down the bar and check the off-center. I corrected mine by making some shims from a beer can and placing them at the headstock dovetail. The further out from the chuck you take the measurement the more accurate the result will be. I got mine to within .001", 18" out fom the chuck. Next, mount the test bar between centers and sweep with the indicator. Adjust the tailstock accordingly so that a sweep is within .001".

The cross-slide to the centerline was spot on. This I checked by cutting a test piece (facing) and having it checked on an optical comparator. You might try using a precision machinists square also.

Setting up my Unique lathes was easier as I just had to offset the left side tailstock until the test bar read "0". On my Unique lathes I use two tailstocks designated left and right. If I mount the test bar between the left and right centers and tighten the chuck on the bar it should still sweep to within .001".

As a side note on the Cueman; remember the headstock is made out of aluminum and it moves quite a bit especially if like me you run it without the cover on. I check mine every week, more often if I am drilling core holes.

Once your equipment is "squared-up" facing off can easily be accomplished by any method.

Bob Flynn
denalicues@ca.rr.com
 
Poulos Cues said:
Let the fun begin;)
One of the problems that I am faced with is the ID bore in my spindle. It is very rough and hard to accurately measure and put a collet in there.

So, you can face between centers but then how do you hold the back end of your handle, or joint end of your prong when you bore and tap them? You can get the end in the chuck true but have no real accurate way of indicating the other end inside of the spindle. The chuck I have on the back of my headstock works well only after my cue is assembled.

Here it comes.....ready......the use of a STEADY REST for facing, drilling, tapping, etc.

I use a 3/8 carbide single point facing tool. I have read somewhere that if you are less than .005ths out of round after joining the handle/prong (which may sound like a football field to many:) ) you should be okay. I strive for less. Open for discussion on that point...

But HOW do you accurately indicate the face?

Is it not true that even though you face across the wood and indicate it--that it will be true to your cut (your cross-slide)...but how do you know that the cue is not at an angle?? Therefore the face could still be non-perpendicular to the od of the cue?

This is easy to measure when you have a ground piece of straight stock chucked up that you can sweep on 3 sides for flatness, roundness, and straightness.

Even if you put the assembled cue in both chucks and indicate both ends to be running true, how do you know that the entire cue is not on an angle since the indicator is only touching one point on the cue??

Chris
Click to expand...

Let the fun begin
One of the problems that I am faced with is the ID bore in my spindle. It is very rough and hard to accurately measure and put a collet in there.
would a split collet rectify your situation??? just wondering. the bore of my spindle is not perfect either. been thinking of using split collets of delrin
 
> Nice machine there,but has a awful small ID spindle for a lathe that size,and the description doesn't say how long it is between centers. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> Nice machine there,but has a awful small ID spindle for a lathe that size,and the description doesn't say how long it is between centers. Tommy D.
Click to expand...

That is a very high precision "chucker" tool room lathe. They very seldom use a chuck but a precision collett set up instead. They are for facing and machining smaller parts held in the colletts. This is the type lathe that uses expensive, high precision bearings. With a good collett set such as Royal you can expect to hold tolerances down to .0001 or.0002. They are usually used for making prototype operations. These are great lathes but certainly over kill for cue making even if the bed were longer.

Dick
 
Tommy-D said:
> Nice machine there,but has a awful small ID spindle for a lathe that size,and the description doesn't say how long it is between centers. Tommy D.
Click to expand...

Item Specifics - Lathes, Turning Type Machines
Type: Engine Highest Spindle Speed (RPM): 2501 - 3000
Make: Hardinge Distance Between Centers: 10'' - 20''
Model: HLV-H Hole Thru Spindle: 1.25"
Model Year: 1960's Serial Number: HLV-H 1747
Swing Over Bed: 11''
 
BHQ said:
Let the fun begin
One of the problems that I am faced with is the ID bore in my spindle. It is very rough and hard to accurately measure and put a collet in there.
would a split collet rectify your situation??? just wondering. the bore of my spindle is not perfect either. been thinking of using split collets of delrin
Click to expand...

What kind of lathe are you using?
 
BHQ said:
Let the fun begin
One of the problems that I am faced with is the ID bore in my spindle. It is very rough and hard to accurately measure and put a collet in there.
would a split collet rectify your situation??? just wondering. the bore of my spindle is not perfect either. been thinking of using split collets of delrin
Click to expand...

It is smooth for a few inches behind the chuck into the head. Then it turns into a ROUGH sprial and then smooth again at the other end. The problem with using a slpit collet inside the head is that you cannot get an accurate measurement any way that you go IMO. Maybe I could pull the spindle out and have bored...then a split collet might work....Not worth it for me right now.

Chris
 
Poulos Cues said:
Funny! Will go in halves with me???:)
Click to expand...
http://cgi.ebay.com/2nd-OP-LATHE-BY...ryZ26258QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Prolly the same machine Falcon was setup to use before heading to China.
You just need to get another short be and a steady/rest bearing around the spindle hole. :)
These puppies are getting cheaper by the month as a lot of machine shops here are closing.
You can make joint protectors and collars ( even pins if you really want to ) with 'em pretty sporty.
 
BHQ said:
One of the problems that I am faced with is the ID bore in my spindle. It is very rough and hard to accurately measure and put a collet in there. Would a split collet rectify your situation??? just wondering. the bore of my spindle is not perfect either. been thinking of using split collets of delrin
Click to expand...

Mounting a second chuck at the back of your lathe, and using the method I outlined earlier works very well. The inside bore becomes irrelevant except for actual diameter.
 
Sheldon said:
Face both ends of the forearm between centers. Drill a shallow hole and tap it 5/16-18 in the small end. Take a short section of allthread and insert it in the hole. Screw a shaft or similar piece of wood...
QUOTE]

Sheldon,
I think I understand your method of lengthening the short pieces. How though do you propose holding the shorts while drilling and tapping them BEFORE they become long enough to fit from chuck-to-chuck?

Thanks in advance:confused:
Chris
Click to expand...
 
Poulos Cues said:
Sheldon said:
Face both ends of the forearm between centers. Drill a shallow hole and tap it 5/16-18 in the small end. Take a short section of allthread and insert it in the hole. Screw a shaft or similar piece of wood...
QUOTE]

Sheldon,
I think I understand your method of lengthening the short pieces. How though do you propose holding the shorts while drilling and tapping them BEFORE they become long enough to fit from chuck-to-chuck?

Thanks in advance:confused:
Chris
Click to expand...
Delrin collets? One inside the spindle and one in chuck with tapered insides.
Leave the tenon oversized.
After the stud is glued and dried, place the thing between centers then take a fine pass on the tenon and the stud ( if needed but a little play here? ) then face it?
Click to expand...
 
Poulos Cues said:
I think I understand your method of lengthening the short pieces. How though do you propose holding the shorts while drilling and tapping them BEFORE they become long enough to fit from chuck-to-chuck?
Thanks in advance:confused:
Click to expand...

I have a long dead center that I can put into the rear chuck to support the back end of short pieces. This holds them close enough to the centerline for a temporary drill and tap job. I wouldn't face them from there, since any slight runout in the chuck will be magnified by the 6 or 7 inch overhang of the center. (My chucks are about 20" apart.)
 
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