Reusing Old facing, ringwork, and insert in a new shaft

Cue Crazy

Cue Crazy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a situation with making a 5/16-18 shaft that is such where tenoning the old ring work and insert may be My best option. I can use the old trim because the customer's old shaft is warped very badly, and they have no problem with Me cutting It out. Under most circumstances I usually make up new ring work, or bore the old ring work to fit on the new shaft and install a new insert, but in this situation there are few things that have Me considering using the old insert, facing, and trim rings by cutting a tenon behind the ringwork that is slightly larger then the insert, boring out the new shaft and sliding It on. The pin is not dead nuts, although close enough that It works with the old facing and insert, and I have the handle collar dialed in at under.001, so I should be able to cut a fairly true tenon.

I do have some concerns though,

When just doing a flat face behind the ring work, It strikes me similar to the practice of no collar shafts, They may hold up fine, but sometimes they split plain and simple, after all that is one of the main true purposes of a collar, to protect the end grain. I have personally shattered a cue that had no collars while breaking. This situation, obviously being somewhat different in that there is a lot of gluing surface to help hold It together, still yet I may be over thinking this, but found Myself compelled to add more security to the situation, By creating a small thin tenon or shoulder if you will, on the face of the bored out shaft piece, and then boring into the back facing under the ringwork,and up against the tenon. this would be a short shoulder reaching about half through the thickness of the first segmented piece in the ringwork, but would be intended to help lock the end grain of the new shaftwood in even better.
So I have this Idea in my head, only one problem, It would take a tiny boring bar, and I don't have anything that small. So I grab a a old dull carbide tool, and get to grinding. The end result was a tiny boring bar about 0.045 wide, raked down on 3 sides, and tapering down to about 0.040 back toward the tool post. It's pretty thin but very ridgid, and feels like It should work without breaking if I take very thin passes. I guess how thick of a shoulder I can get in there will depend on what diameter I cut the tenon that goes into the shaft.

Which brings up a question, wondering what Diameter others here with experience in this sort of thing would prefer. I think the insert is roughly 0.450, so I'm guessing more then 0.550, which could possibly throw a wrench into My other plans. I'm also curious as to how deep I should go into the new shaft with the tenon/how long to cut the tenon behind the ringwork? I don't want to end up in a give and take situation when It comes to structural integrity, so I'm open to any suggestions from others that have been down this road. like I mention I usually go one of the other ways when building shafts, so this is kind of new territory for Me.
 
This is an instance where a pic would be real helpful.
Reason being, I can't SEE why you can't just remove the rings from the old shaft and install them on the new shaft in the traditional manner.
You can remove the insert before-hand or use a new one. Then bore the ring-stack and part it off, albeit, very carefully.

If you're contemplating 'tenoning' the old shaft to accommodate a pin that's not centered or true, start by resetting the pin.
Correct the pin and your work on the new shaft becomes straight-forward.
For that matter, so does all the work that will ever be performed in that area thereafter.
In other words, if the pin was installed incorrectly, which is now causing you grief for a new shaft install, don't accommodate it, correct it.

The tenoning of the old shaft does have merits, one of which is speed of install. It's not my first choice of methods but it does work quite well and is not as weak of a method as you might think.
You can forget the 'counter-boring' of the ring-work while still on the tenon; it won't help.
Where this method picks-up it's greatest strength is in the glue surface area btwn. the tenon and the interior of the new shaft. That and the epoxy that you use.
I agree that banding the shaft with the ring-work would be the way to go but if you're saying that it's not possible in this situation, then tenoning the old shaft would be the next best thing.

While we're on this path of 'over-thinking', let me throw this little diddy into the mix. Where is the top of the insert in relation to the top of the ring-work? If it's at the same height, or very close, the size & length of the tenon is irrelevant. Your weakest link is the mtrl. btwn the top of the insert and the ring-work. Assuming it's a 7/16" OD insert and the rings set on a 5/8" tenon, you only have approx. .09375"(3/32) of wood around the circumference of the top of insert holding the shaft to the handle.
That's all.
It's for this reason that very tall ring-work on an inserted shaft is not such a good idea. You are in effect creating a shear-point.

Maybe if I had visual, I could be of more help.
 
I almost always bore out the old ringwork if reusing it too.
I think you should be just fine with a 2-3" tenon though, make sure it fits snugly, and leaves only a thou or two at the base of the hole. Make sure you cut a relief slot in the tenon. Glue it well, and there shouldn't be any worry of it breaking, if anything the glue joint there will make it stronger.
 
you could splice the shaft.....use the first 4-5 inches of the old shaft and then cut a two inch 1/2 inch tenon.....that would leave the first 2-3 inches of the old shaft and the rest would be a new blank....I have done this with house cue shafts that were cut to short and I wanted to use the old shaft wood......belive it or not it makes some amazing shafts for house cue conversions.....
 
Perhaps a picture would help, it's possible one of the guys here has the ringwork :)

Mario
 
It sounds to me like you have already figured out a good solution, with the least amount of headache. I think I might would make the fit have a little clearance with a .550" tenon and glue it up on the lathe slowly pushing it forward onto the tenon with tailstock pressure until it seats down and it sompletely full of glue with no pressure left. Give it several seconds to relieve the pressure before pushing the last several thousands of an inch together. Rotate the headstock really slow by hand while pushing together.
 
I would use the old rings and insert in the form of a plug into the new shaft . That way it still aligns with the butt . Done it many times ...:eek::rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the input guys, Like I mentioned I normally go the way some would prefer, as I feel much the same way, but for several reasons I think I have decided to go this way, The pin is not so far off that the slop in the insert now doesn't work, although My inserts fit a little more snug, but That's not My only reason for going this way, and I'd rather not get into anything negative about another maker's work, hence the reason for no Pictures. One other thing that I could mention and would not really be negative on anyone other then Myself possibly, is that I am having a hard time finding a match for a stained piece, although I have all the other materials for the ring work. There are several other reasons I don't want to go by way of boring out the ringwork on this one, but good or bad I'll have to leave those to the imagination. My apologies for that.

I think I'm pretty much decided on trying this for Myself in this situation, so My main thing is figuring out the best tenon size that gives me the best structural integrity under the circumstances. I don't want to make It too small, but at the same time I don't want to make It overly large thinning the side wall of the bore into the new shaft out too much.

I've had some doozies that I was still able to work out using the traditional method, and a lot of hair twisting, so It's not My main priority with this one, but Saving Myself the headaches is a nice little bonus of coarse. Also trying to save the player a few bucks. I wouldn't pay $200 for the cue, but that's me, others may pay more, but that's besides the point for him, It's sentimental to him because he has had It for many years. He only had one shaft and that one is severly warped, not to mention It's about the size of a pencil from a retaper or years of sanding, not sure which. Either way It's pretty much unplayable, and his main concern is to have a good shaft to use.

He's a local, and good guy. If anything were to go wrong with the shaft, I'd be right there, and I gaurentee My work, Always have, so worste case senerio I risk having to make him another shaft, and do It the usual way. The good part of that is that atleast the ringwork will still be all in tact, the way It is now.

OH btw, the insert is a deep one, I looked in there with a flashlight, and the brass threads travel the entire lenth of the bore. so The brass insert is about 1-1/4" long with the ringwork being about half that lenth. That has me wondering If I can get away with a smaller tenon to increase the sidewall tickness of the new shaft, but My logic keeps posing the question, if this would just be a give and take?

Anyway Thanks for all the input and suggestions, I'll probably give It a shot, and hit this thing up tonight.

Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
OH btw, the insert is a deep one, I looked in there with a flashlight, and the brass threads travel the entire lenth of the bore. so The brass insert is about 1-1/4" long with the ringwork being about half that lenth. That has me wondering If I can get away with a smaller tenon to increase the sidewall tickness of the new shaft, but My logic keeps posing the question, if this would just be a give and take?
Click to expand...
I would worry much less about the sidewall of your bore than how much you can leave around the insert. I'd sooner make the tenon larger than smaller.
 
Sheldon said:
I would worry much less about the sidewall of your bore than how much you can leave around the insert. I'd sooner make the tenon larger than smaller.
Click to expand...



Thanks Sheldon, I made the tenon at .550, and It seemed to be strong enough. Hoping everything holds up well, only time will tell I suppose.

I appreciate Everyone's thoughts and the things to be considered with This.

Greg
 
Greg, Considering that the tenon will not just be wood, but also be comprised of a brass fitting about 1-1/8" long, without any give to it, I would think that anything in the .500" range will be fine. That will give plenty of wall thickness and a strong enough tenon. Sometimes over thinking it just isn't worth the aggravation it causes:wink: Remember, a thin epoxy is a good thing, and if used properly will strengthen the wood joint, not hurt it. One thing I usually do is make sure the grains are 90 degrees apart from each other when glueing up. This way, a crack or stress fracture won't be able to destroy the whole bond. It may not blend as well, but IMO will help it to stay together better. Just my .02 cents.
Good luck Greg and have a happy"T" day.
Dave
 
Cue Crazy said:
Thanks Sheldon, I made the tenon at .550, and It seemed to be strong enough. Hoping everything holds up well, only time will tell I suppose.

I appreciate Everyone's thoughts and the things to be considered with This.

Greg
Click to expand...

When you think about it, a shaft dia. is less than that, at the business end and it holds up to a lot of use, and stress, a tenon inserted into a tight fitting hole with a thin epoxy bonding it should hold up fine.
Dave
 
Dave38 said:
Greg, Considering that the tenon will not just be wood, but also be comprised of a brass fitting about 1-1/8" long, without any give to it, I would think that anything in the .500" range will be fine. That will give plenty of wall thickness and a strong enough tenon. Sometimes over thinking it just isn't worth the aggravation it causes:wink: Remember, a thin epoxy is a good thing, and if used properly will strengthen the wood joint, not hurt it. One thing I usually do is make sure the grains are 90 degrees apart from each other when glueing up. This way, a crack or stress fracture won't be able to destroy the whole bond. It may not blend as well, but IMO will help it to stay together better. Just my .02 cents.
Good luck Greg and have a happy"T" day.
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave,

Great suggestions, I hadn't actually considered offsetting the grains.

It may not be the correct thinking, but My logic tells Me that the weak points, are the bottom of the tenon, the bottom of the brass insert since the bore ends there and does not continue as with most inserts, and the end grain of the new shaft. The tenon size that I am using still allows for me to flange the end grain, so even though It may not be necessary, I'm still going fore-ward with that idea for My own piece of Mind. I ran out of My usual epoxy anyhow, so I need to order some more, and since It was not properly suited anyway, I'm also looking for some kind of laminating adhesive for situations like this. I already informed the customer that It may take longer then It should, and luckily he was very understanding, told me to take all the time I need. Wish They were all that patient.

Greg
 
Really that is how?

I have a feeling the rings in the Cues shown may be threaded on. And how do you pretend that can happen again?
So all you will be doing is rebuilding inferior shafts. Make a hole. Scratch it up. Stick it together.
Ask Mike Webb the right way to do it. Then thank him. He might tell you just build new rings.
I am glad machinist can make things nice.
Properly repairing something right takes more than a machinist.
Nick :)
 
cueman said:
It sounds to me like you have already figured out a good solution, with the least amount of headache. I think I might would make the fit have a little clearance with a .550" tenon and glue it up on the lathe slowly pushing it forward onto the tenon with tailstock pressure until it seats down and it sompletely full of glue with no pressure left. Give it several seconds to relieve the pressure before pushing the last several thousands of an inch together. Rotate the headstock really slow by hand while pushing together.
Click to expand...

I found a few shafts with a ,500 insert in them and upped my tenon size to .600 so I would not get close to uncovering it.

I started out with a .500 tenon and I did hit a few that caused problems.

Kim
 
I also use the original butt as a mandril. I set up in the lathe and indicate it to as close to zero as I can get it.

I turn the tenon on the shaft stub and then epoxy on the new shaft blank. Turn the lathe by hand and watch the new shaft tip. Keep turning the new shaft blank until you find where the shaft runs true and hold it with the tail stock center until the epoxy sets.

Never had any problems with this method.

Kim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top