A Players 'Union'?

Do you think pro poolplayers need to organize?

  • Yea

    Votes: 51 78.5%

  • Nay

    Votes: 14 21.5%
  • Total voters
    65
ridewiththewind

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
I posted this in one of the IPT threads, but am afraid it's going to get buried there, so I thought I would start a thread here. This is meant to be serious, as I believe any and all input could be valuable. I welcome all responses, but please, let's keep things civil.

With the recent events concerning the IPT, and in the past, with the PBT, do you think it might be time for professional poolplayers to united and form a 'union'/organization?

Such an organiztion would afford those who make a living at the game some protection from issues like non-payment of tournament monies due, for one. It could also include those who are referees at tournaments. This would allow for a dialog between players and refs, allowing for a more standardized format for rulings, unlike the inconsistencies witness at KOTH.

Such an organization would allow for a legal retainer. It could also negotiate with air carriers and hoteliers for contracts guaranteeing players travelling between events such things as reasonable discounts for airfare and accommodations. It could also negotiate a contract for insurance to cover any losses and/or damages players may incur to their equipment via air carriers, hoteliers, and the TSA.

The benefits of uniting as a whole entity would provide power in numbers, and give the players a real voice, especially when dealing with tour directors/owners. It might also give Pool some credibility to the rest of the sports world and may actually generate more interest for better tv coverage.

To many, if not most, pro players this is their job. Why not unite together as truck drivers, plumbers, carpenters, steel workers have done to protect themselves in the workplace?

Lisa
 
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ridewiththewind said:
I posted this in one of the IPT threads, but am afraid it's going to get buried there, so I thought I would start a thread here. This is meant to be serious, as I believe any and all input could be valuable. I welcome all responses, but please, let's keep things civil.

With the recent events concerning the IPT, and in the past, with the PBT, do you think it might be time for professional poolplayers to united and form a 'union'/organization?

Such an organiztion would afford those who make a living at the game some protection from issues like non-payment of tournament monies due, for one. It could also include those who are referees at tournaments. This would allow for a dialog between players and refs, allowing for a more standardized format for rulings, unlike the inconsistencies witness at KOTH.

Such an organization would allow for a legal retainer. It could also negotiate with air carriers and hoteliers for contracts guaranteeing players travelling between events such things as reasonable discounts for airfare and accommodations. It could also negotiate a contract for insurance to cover any losses and/or damages players may incur to their equipment via air carriers, hoteliers, and the TSA.

The benefits of uniting as a whole entity would provide power in numbers, and give the players a real voice, especially when dealing with tour directors/owners. It might also give Pool some credibility to the rest of the sports world and may actually generate more interest for better tv coverage.

Too many, if not most, pro players this is their job. Why not unite together as truck drivers, plumbers, carpenters, steel workers have done to protect themselves in the workplace?

Lisa
Click to expand...

Lisa

I have been pushing for this for the past 4 years. When the IPT was formed, I offered to organize and set this up so that the players would have some type of arbitrarial representation. The players seemd to not support it at the time, and the IPT basically could have cared less. KT did not want anyone telling him how to run his tour or how to treat his players. Will it ever happen? It will be up to the players, not KT or any tour promoter.

The players need to understand that there is no tour without them. There are no matches without them. There is no product without them. They need to leverage themselves accordingly.
 
Blackjack said:
Lisa

I have been pushing for this for the past 4 years. When the IPT was formed, I offered to organize and set this up so that the players would have some type of arbitrarial representation. The players seemd to not support it at the time, and the IPT basically could have cared less. KT did not want anyone telling him how to run his tour or how to treat his players. Will it ever happen? It will be up to the players, not KT or any tour promoter.

The players need to understand that there is no tour without them. There are no matches without them. There is no product without them. They need to leverage themselves accordingly.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are most definitely right...the players need to understand that THEY are the commidity...they are the show, they are the draw. Without them, you have a room full of empty pool tables. If exploitation is to take place, then it is the player who should have full control over his/her exploitation, and he/she should benefit accordingly.

It is unfortunate that there has been little or no interest by the players up to this point, but perhaps with the recent events with the IPT, it may have been the 'wake-up call' needed.

I would also like to qualify that there are many honest tour directors/owners out there. This is in no way a negative mark on their integrity, and ability to run a tour. I would think that the recent events with the IPT and KT has to be upsetting them as well, since it has obviously hurt their attendence numbers, as witnessed by the recent low participation in the US Open 9 Ball Championship.

Lisa
 
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Blackjack said:
...The players need to understand that there is no tour without them. There are no matches without them. There is no product without them. They need to leverage themselves accordingly.
Click to expand...

Organization would have to be a key component of making professional pool playing a more viable career choice.

I chose the above portion of Blackjack's post to quote because, while I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of players unifying, holding another party- organizers/ product manufacturers/ media/ etc...- hostage over something they really don't care about could really backfire.
 
Black-Balled said:
Organization would have to be a key component of making professional pool playing a more viable career choice.

I chose the above portion of Blackjack's post to quote because, while I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of players unifying, holding another party- organizers/ product manufacturers/ media/ etc...- hostage over something they really don't care about could really backfire.
Click to expand...

As with anything that is not organized properly, it could backfire. It doesn't have to be an 'us or them' type situation. The 'union' and tour directors/owners could work hand in hand to effect change. But they both need to be part of the process, not just one or the other.

Think about it....baseball players have their union, which negotiates with the MLB, as do the football players and the NFL. Why should poolplayers have any less representation in their sport. Currently, tour directors/owners make all the decisions, and the players just show up and play, good, bad or otherwise.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
As with anything that is not organized properly, it could backfire...Why should poolplayers have any less representation in their sport...

Lisa
Click to expand...

We are in the same church- the only that makes me feel cautious about organizing (read: putting in a position to demand) is that no one, aside from we who like pool, really care!
 
Black-Balled said:
We are in the same church- the only that makes me feel cautious about organizing (read: putting in a position to demand) is that no one, aside from we who like pool, really care!
Click to expand...

The only difference I see here is that where you choose to see it as a position to demand, I see it as a position to protect their interests.

Lisa
 
It won't work ...

It won't work because:

1) Only a select few are 100% professional tournament players.
2) Majority either hustle for a living on the side, or have a part time job
to help subside.
3) Collecting their 'monthly' dues for a union would be a BIG problem, Poolplayers are not very reliable, and many might be busted when it came time to pay the dues.
4) You would never know where most of them would be at any point in time.

It would be a can of worms ... lol
 
i think a players union would be a great idea. hell for the most part it would be just something that exists in the background not doing that much really, unless there was some sort of trouble. (eg current IPT cheque fiasco) then you'd have the means to sort the problem out with the union, and it would give the players some power. not in a bad way, just to protect their interests.

my only issue with the PPPU (i believe a union to be inevitable so I want to the the first person to give it it's name :D), is how do you qualify to be in it?

regular participation in a certain number of tounaments? minimum prize money earned? how would that part work i wonder.
 
Yes, I think unions have their place, and in the right situation, can be a worthwhile venture. Does the billiard industry need some sort of representation? Absolutely.

I have been reading how there hasn't been any prize money paid so far and all the players are hearing "It's in the mail." Yeah right. What gets me is the money should have been available BEFORE the tournament began. Through sponsorships, entry fees, etc. If Trudeau is such the gazillionaire that he claims to be, he should be paying the players. Though from what I gather, he isn't too concerned about his reputation but rather his bottom line.

If the IPT doesn't pay the players, why would they show up? Maybe some of you can have a "players" meeting and if you have enough support, boycott the next tournaments until Trudeau makes good. I am assuming there are contracts of sorts guaranteeing the payout, so legal action may be another course.

If there was any time that the players should come together, I would say this is it.
 
I believe a players union COULD be a good thing, for many of the reasons mentioned. However, the union would have to be very careful with the way they operate.

IIRC, the UPA was suppose to organize and protect players, however, with their strong arm tactics, they agitated, threatened and alienated promoters. Some promoters decided it just wasn't worth the trouble to promote a pool tournament.

The union would have to realize that not all promoters are billionaires like KT. Many operate on a shoe string, similar to the players, and are just trying to do their best. The union would have to find a way to work with promoters, not drive them away.

What may be a better situation, if it would be at all possible, is if the players could unite and start promoting their own tour.
 
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Snapshot9 said:
It won't work because:

1) Only a select few are 100% professional tournament players.
2) Majority either hustle for a living on the side, or have a part time job
to help subside.
3) Collecting their 'monthly' dues for a union would be a BIG problem, Poolplayers are not very reliable, and many might be busted when it came time to pay the dues.
4) You would never know where most of them would be at any point in time.

It would be a can of worms ... lol
Click to expand...

Its not a can of worms and it has been done before.There are no "monthly" dues. There should be yearly dues and participation should be voluntary. Legal representation is not cheap for anybody. Setting an amount for the dues then becomes the problem. For every problem there is a solution. That is where the wheels need to start turning to find a way how we can do it instead of focusing all of our energy on why it won't work. It's all about having the right attitude to get the job done and finding the right people to do it.
 
A formal union needs a predictable and measurable economic environment to exist.

I think we can safely say that the current economic environment for pool players is neither predictable or measurable.

The best organizational option the players have in the immediate future is right here on the internet via Email and it's dues free.

Besides, if you create a formal union, there will be decisions that require the players to put the survival of the union ahead of their own personal needs. From a psychological perspective, with all due respect as a free spirit myself, I just don't see that happening.

Bottom line, there is just not enough money in pool right now for a formal union.
 
ridewiththewind said:
I
To many, if not most, pro players this is their job. Why not unite together as truck drivers, plumbers, carpenters, steel workers have done to protect themselves in the workplace?

Lisa
Click to expand...

wellllll,,,drivers, plumbers, carpenters, and steel workers are NEEDED, for one thing.

now, in the sports/entertainment arena, the those players/creatives are vital to a multi-BILLION DOLLAR industry.

the bottom line is that there's a real need for those indivisuals. they are of value to many for lot$$$.

all said more poetically by "da poet"
 
Da Poet said:
A formal union needs a predictable and measurable economic environment to exist.

I think we can safely say that the current economic environment for pool players is neither predictable or measurable.

The best organizational option the players have in the immediate future is right here on the internet via Email and it's dues free.

Besides, if you create a formal union, there will be decisions that require the players to put the survival of the union ahead of their own personal needs. From a psychological perspective, with all due respect as a free spirit myself, I just don't see that happening.

Bottom line, there is just not enough money in pool right now for a formal union.
Click to expand...

The only constructive idea I can see at this point, what is the first and most important thing to do? We'll share each others ideas and then vote in ONE idea agreed on by a majority and set a minimum amount of members before any vote can be taken and enacted. When I say ONE item in the beginning I mean ONE. A special chat room, members only $5 a year, money in escrow and take it slow. With the internet and almost no cost to communicate, it could be a start. As a guess a minimum of 100 members. With such a diverse crowd of older, younger and new players some great ideas could surface. All this would do is create the product without any players yet.
 
So there just so many possibilities with organization. Beyond what I have already mentioned, as a group, it would also allow for those benefits that those who have 'normal' jobs already enjoy. Contracts could be negotiated for both life and medical insurance. The ability to purchase some equipment at discount. And even more importantly, respect. No longer would pool carry that stigma of being somehow 'seedy'.

I am not sure as to a criteria for membership. I would assume that whatever criteria is required to play at the pro level now, might likely apply. However, that is the beauty of it, the players would decide what THEY feel the criteria for membership should be.

As to the comment that a predictable and measurable economic environment is needed for such an organization to exist, quite frankly, until the players unite, there will never be one.

As to the other comment made here about it quietly running in the background until it's needed....the best analogy I can liken it to would be much like your anti-virus software running in the background of your computer....it's there, just in case you need it. By no means would this organization use it's potential power in numbers to 'strongarm' tour/tournament directors/owners/operators. The ideal here is for a symbiotic relationship to exist between the two. When that happens, it can only be mutually beneficial to all...the players, the tours/tournaments...and the spectators, the fans of the game.

Lisa
 
No category for me to vote on :(

I would only see a chance of a union working on a tour the size of the IPT. I couldn't see the smaller tour operators dealing with a union rep that just wants their hand added to the $ pot. It would be easier to just donate to a fund to keep a law firm on retainer for $ problems.

I could see a place for it with a major tour that has a consistant player base. But the small tours don't have that steady base for a union to draw from. Players may be members of several small tours and only play 1 - 3 events the whole year (I think I have 3 pro tour cards now and prob have another before years end and wouldn't pay any union a dime). Pool players are the modern day gypsy's when it comes to staying in one place and no loyalty to a tour, they go where the money is (tour or gambling).

I'm not claiming to know much about unions because they are about non-existent and have no power in FL (right to work state, Thank God).

:)
 
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ridewiththewind said:
I posted this in one of the IPT threads, but am afraid it's going to get buried there, so I thought I would start a thread here. This is meant to be serious, as I believe any and all input could be valuable. I welcome all responses, but please, let's keep things civil.

With the recent events concerning the IPT, and in the past, with the PBT, do you think it might be time for professional poolplayers to united and form a 'union'/organization?

Such an organiztion would afford those who make a living at the game some protection from issues like non-payment of tournament monies due, for one. It could also include those who are referees at tournaments. This would allow for a dialog between players and refs, allowing for a more standardized format for rulings, unlike the inconsistencies witness at KOTH.

Such an organization would allow for a legal retainer. It could also negotiate with air carriers and hoteliers for contracts guaranteeing players travelling between events such things as reasonable discounts for airfare and accommodations. It could also negotiate a contract for insurance to cover any losses and/or damages players may incur to their equipment via air carriers, hoteliers, and the TSA.

The benefits of uniting as a whole entity would provide power in numbers, and give the players a real voice, especially when dealing with tour directors/owners. It might also give Pool some credibility to the rest of the sports world and may actually generate more interest for better tv coverage.

To many, if not most, pro players this is their job. Why not unite together as truck drivers, plumbers, carpenters, steel workers have done to protect themselves in the workplace?

Lisa
Click to expand...
The internet is the perfect place for this. In fact, AZBilliards is the perfect place for it. I have ideas for a pro player organization and I'm sure everyone else does. You can't really separate pros from amatuers so I think everyone should be able to join and contribute ideas. Whoever plays in the tournaments will get the points. No one should have to pay anything, at least for now.

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
...No one should have to pay anything, at least for now.
unknownpro
Click to expand...

ridewiththewind said:
So there just so many possibilities with organization...would also allow for those benefits that those who have 'normal' jobs already enjoy. Contracts could be negotiated for both life and medical insurance...
Lisa
Click to expand...

Benefits cost $500 a month for single coverage- before deductibles/ copays.
Costs go up when the insurance carriers report the SSNs to child support agencies which require the addition of children to policies.

But the promoters could absorb that?
 
Rich R. said:
the UPA was suppose to organize and protect players, however, with their strong arm tactics, they agitated, threatened and alienated promoters.

hi,
we have paranoics and controll freaks on every corner of the street in our culture and much more so among pool players.union will be good but wouldn`t last long.pool players do not trust each other.:cool:
Click to expand...
 
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