[Fastolfe]

Originally Posted by 3andstop

I have a friend who has ridiculous draw, I mean unreal amounts of draw.

What sort of force does he use to get a lot of draw? drawing from across the table isn't all that tough is you hammer the cueball low and hard.

My definition of a powerful draw (or follow or english) is a maximum amount of effect for as little object ball speed as possible after the cueball collides with it. So for instance, if the cueball is on the head line and the object ball is, say, 10" in front of it, and you can draw the cueball back to the head rail and leave the object ball near the foot rail with your cue horizontal, that's what I call a powerful draw, but the shot isn't particularly violent.

[JLD]

tip to CB contact lasts 1/1000th of a second...any deceleration of the cue stick in that tiny of a time frame is virtually non existent...

Tip contact last appx 1/1000ths of a second assuming you are using a medium tip, but is appx 2/1000ths sec with a soft tip and 5/10000(ten thousandths) of a second with a very hard tip like phenolic. Contact time decreases slightly for faster speeds. With a slow shot speed(appx 3mph) using a medium hardness tip the cue ball will travel appx 53/1000ths of an inch during tip contact and at medium speed(appx 7mph) it will travel slightly over 110/1000ths of an inch in the same time frame. As you can easily see 53/1000ths of an inch although a very small distance makes a noticeable difference in shot speed.

The speed the cue ball obtains from contact of the cue tip is not determined strictly by how fast the cue is moving but rather how far the cue ball is moved during the time frame of the contact period. Deceleration of the cue during tip contact occurs at two places...the tip as it compresses and at the grip where the cue shoves back against the hand. If the distance the tip compresses and the distance the cue pushes back against the grip adds up to at least 18 thousandths the cue will effectively slow down by 1mph which certainly could have a noticeable affect on the outcome of a shot. As you can see from the attached pic the tip alone can compress more than 18 thousandths. If a loose grip gives as much or more curing contact as the tip does it has the potential to effectively slow down the cue more than 1mph. IMO if the grip is held loose it will give quite a bit more(3 to 5 mph) than what the tip will compress using a medium plus to fast stroke. While tightening the grip cannot keep the tip from compressing it can prevent the cue from sliding back against the grip thus retaining more of the cue speed throughout the contact period.



you have a collision at a given speed. that is instantaneous...anything you do with a cue stick that takes effect after that collision is irrelevant..

The problem is that the collision in not instantaneous and varies anywhere from 5 tenthousandths to 2 thousandths of a sec depending on the hardness of the tip. The effective speed range for a medium hardness tip is from 0 to 25+ mph for that brief 1/1000th of a second contact. If 1/1000th of a second is so insignificant how can anyone possibly manage to control such a widespread speed range of cue ball speed simply by shooting softer or harder. After the contact has ended I agree with you.

the shooter has no control over anything except where on the CB and how fast the stick is moving when that instantaneous collision takes place..

If that was the complete truth it wouldn't matter what angle the cue tip strikes the cue ball as long as it hits the correct spot on the cue ball. Directional control of the cue is also an important factor.

a super soft tip compared with a very hard tip might have a minor effect.. adding in the neighborhood of a ten thousandth of a second to that contact..

Sorry but a soft tip can double the contact time from .001 to .002 of a sec http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html .

but adjusting grip or stroke to adapt to those tiny factions of a second isn't going to get you very far...especially once you add in the effects of chalk,,, how clean or dirty the cloth and balls are... the heat and humidity in the room ...

According to your definition above there is really no such thing as stroke..."the shooter has no control over anything except where on the CB and how fast the stick is moving when that instantaneous collision takes place.."

adapting to conditions is hard enough without trying to adapt your stroke and grip to any given shot... you'll end up chasing your tail.. and never get anywhere...

I don't believe I advocated what you are implying. I simply offered a solution to help correct the problem the OP was having with the draw shot. The OP has to adapt in some fashion or he will lose his draw shot. You should not close your mind to new techniques that could advance your game without even giving them a try.

a better method is to have a proven stroke and grip that you can employ over a range of speeds and adapt that way..

There are a lot of different methods that work well in the game of pool. If your method works well for you then you certainly should stick with it.

less variables equals less things to go wrong...

Absolutely have to agree with this one but on the other hand a closed mind results in a dead end.

You SPF fellows seem to be more inclined to question the science rather than whether the technique works or not. I stated in my first post that I had no scientific proof but that appears to not have mattered. In the end however the proof is in the pudding. I know what I have stated works as I have taught it successfully more that a few players. If I can help the OP(or anyone else for that matter) overcome their problem with draw using the same technique then that is all that matters in the long run.

[softshot]

Originally Posted by JLD

You SPF fellows seem to be more inclined to question the science rather than whether the technique works or not. I stated in my first post that I had no scientific proof but that appears to not have mattered. In the end however the proof is in the pudding. I know what I have stated works as I have taught it successfully more that a few players. If I can help the OP(or anyone else for that matter) overcome their problem with draw using the same technique then that is all that matters in the long run.

you appear to have taken offense that was NOT my intention..

how do you quantify your grip pressures?

how do you teach someone not only several grip pressures but when and why to use them?

I believe it is much better to get to a workable repeatable pressure... same thing every time..

so it's the same thing with one variable changing.. but my variable is necessary..

all pool players regardless of technique.. must shoot at variable speeds..
that is a necessary variable.. you must work on that regardless of who you are..

I agree that there are many schools of thought one mans trash is another mans treasure.. and all that..

whether its 5/10000th of a second or 2/1000th of a second... an eye blink is 4/1000ths of a second.. these are microscopic time frames.

YES you CAN hit a ball accurately doing the pop bottle drill.. gripping tight.. dropping your shoulder and elbow...breaking your wrist... and all that..

I bet there is someone who can come to the table at a full run with the cue stick held out like a sword and get a CB to draw..

but it's not the easiest way to do it..

I train to control one muscle at variable speeds.. and I have gotten pretty good at it..

if you train to make that simple motion involve several muscle groups at varying pressures and speeds.. good for you

but there is an easier way to do it..

simplify..

[pooltchr]

The variable you mention about tip hardness really isn't an issue, unless you are changing cues or shafts depending on the shot. Most of us use the same cue, and thus, the same tip on every shot, so there is no need to change how we stroke based on the slight difference in contact time.
There are three things we control on every shot...Angle, Speed, and Spin. As you mentioned, the direction the cue is traveling when it makes contact, or angle of attack, the speed the cue is moving when it makes contact, and the spin we apply to the cue ball based on where we make contact.
Since we don't use different tips throughout the game, out contact time is going to remain reletively consistent on all shots. Yours may be slightly different than mine, since you use a different tip, but yours will be consistent, as will mine.
The simplest adjustment to make is with directional speed of the cue, since we need to adjust that on every shot. If that is a mandatory variable, why not make everything else a constant? Introducing multiple variables into different shots makes consistency much more difficult to achieve.
We SPF followers have found that keeping things as simple as possible usually provides the best, and most consistent, result.

Steve

[randyg]

Originally Posted by JLD

You SPF fellows seem to be more inclined to question the science rather than whether the technique works or not. I stated in my first post that I had no scientific proof but that appears to not have mattered. In the end however the proof is in the pudding. I know what I have stated works as I have taught it successfully more that a few players. If I can help the OP(or anyone else for that matter) overcome their problem with draw using the same technique then that is all that matters in the long run.

Who posted that type of info?? WOW, good camera work....SPF=randyg

[Misha]

I have tried a variety of grips over the years. Just as I did in golf, and baseball before that, and well............all the "important" sports.

I use a slip stroke for the same reason a golfer uses a good follow through. You cannot spin the ball with a "punch" type shot easily. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it's easier to stay in stroke with the cue accelerating at impact. And, you can only accelerate ONCE. Think about it.

For a quick experiment, do your usual draw with your firmer grip. Next, try a very loose grip and think: "flinging" it at the line of stroke. It's not quite what I mean, but you get the idea.

Also, one of the above posters I agree with says that it's harder to draw with a larger tip than a smaller one. Why? I really can't say. <my guess is your tip is not shaped perfectly and you are contacting the ball much higher than you realize> To fix this, shape your tip to a dime radius, and then go so low on the cue ball that it scoops, and then move up a hair. Also, it's very likely you don't have a grooved stroke and you are lifting the cue tip (dropping the butt) on the follow through, which makes it the same thing. JMHO, of course.

[Misha]

After checking out my post from yesterday, I see I may have stepped on my pecker by posting in the Instructors area.

Although I do give many lessons a week to mostly beginners and mid level players, I don't charge and I'm not (nor intend to become) BCA certified.

If I'm in somebody else's space I don't belong, somebody please PM me or say it here is fine.

Again, sorry.......I'll be more careful where I post in the future.

[pooltchr]

I think most of the instructors who post here would agree that we often learn new things from our students. Learning is learning. We gather knowledge!!! Over the years, I have heard a lot of things that, when closely studied, turned out to be less than accurate, but at the same time, I have picked up many good tidbits from many sources.

Steve

[genomachino]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

Just recieved new Barnhart cue with 13 mm aegis ferrule & everist tip. Shot with Meucci Black Dot 12.75mm soft tip previous 6 months, cuetec 13mm soft tip previous 4 yrs. Can draw ball well with meucci & cuetec but have trouble with follow shots. Barnhart follows fantastic better than I ever could but I'm struggleing to draw like I can with the others. Tip ? Taper ? Me ? I love the Barnhart if I can't fix this I'll just avoid draw shots ! Thanks in advance for any Help

Hi there,

Make sure your tip is not flat. I like to have it like a dime. Just recently you were shooting with a 12.75 shaft. Now you are shooting with a 13.00 mm shaft. The thinner the shaft the easier it is to draw or apply the english. The 13mm will still get you there but the softer tip would help.

Have a great day Geno...........

[Ratta]

Originally Posted by randyg

The cue stick doesn't draw the ball, you do.....SPF=randyg

almost every time i could fall in love in you for such a posting- ROTFL
isn t possible to give a even more exactly answer


lg

Ingo

[pooltchr]

Originally Posted by Ratta

almost every time i could fall in love in you for such a posting- ROTFL
isn t possible to give a even more exactly answer


lg

Ingo

The cue stick is a piece of wood with a piece of leather on the end. It doesn't do anything other than what you make it do. There are some things you should to to your cue to make it an effective tool, such as keeping the tip properly shaped, but the bottom line is that it is a tool. In the right hands, it will work just fine. In the wrong hands...it won't.

Steve