You either shoot straight or you don't...

Williebetmore said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Any person who has the desire can get to a low pro level IF they have proper instruction, adequate dedication (read SIGNIFICANT DEDICATION), and adequate time. It is not rocket science;

Click to expand...

Ppl told me the same about chess, and I bought books, videos, software, subscriptions and studied and played during virtually all my spare time (which was a lot of time). I totally immersed myself in it and got coaching from a pro player.

But despite all this, I never got anywhere with it. And I couldn't see things that were obvious to some others.

Some people will just never be more than average at some things, no matter what time, effort and money they put in. That's life, I'm afraid.

Years ago, when I was at school, I was lousy at math (and still am). But I spent hours and hours and hours solving equations and problems etc. It got me a respectable pass grade, but I realized I would never be good at that subject, no matter how much I applied myself. I got through by rote learning, but I *understood* very little of what I was doing. A lesson there.

real bartram said:

yes cause they are dumb threads.

Click to expand...

Agreed, my point exactly.

Williebetmore said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Any person who has the desire can get to a low pro level IF they have proper instruction, adequate dedication (read SIGNIFICANT DEDICATION), and adequate time. It is not rocket science; but the demand for precision is way more significant than many realize. If you disagree, you should be first in line for Mark Wilson's book when it is released; as he has spent his life working to overcome the common misconception that high level pool requires some kind of magical natural ability. He discusses this very subject in great detail, and I am confident that most reasonable readers will be quite convinced by his exposition. There has never been a pool book like this one.

To me, it is almost an insult to the pro's to say that they are there because of some gift they were born with; they are there because they spent huge numbers of hours at the table to develop the repeatability and precision necessary for high level pool. They should be admired for their achievements not envied for their "gifts." JMO

Click to expand...

I would have to respectfully disagree with you about getting to the low pro-level. I know many guys that want nothing more in life than to be good pool players and would kill to get to low pro-level. They've taken instruction, they watch the videos, buy the latest low-deflection thingie, and they put in hundreds, if not thousands of hours playing, practicing, doing drills, playing leagues, tournaments, match-up etc. (they even memorize the aiming systems But to no avail. They get gooder, but are far from anything resembling low pro-status, even after 30 years or more of play.

I would also point out that I don't believe anyone has said the pros are automatically good. Certainly, they have to work long and hard to get to pro-level play. I think the difference that has been pointed out is that for those with natural talent, the ascent to the top is quicker and easier. Some guys are naturally gifted with good athletic skills and practically trot to the top of Everest, clear weather all the way. Others, want to get to the top too, but maybe don't have all the physical gifts, and maybe get bad to horrendous weather on their attempt, and have to cling to whatever outcrop they can.

Lou Figueroa

my take on these aiming systems is... anyone using a predetor shaft cant feel the shots. u cant really through the balls in the holes easly. u need a aiming system.

Looking for "cheat codes" in pool

lfigueroa said:

Me. I do.

Perhaps the thing with all the aiming threads is the same reason 75% of the commercials on day-time TV are for miracle weight loss programs, pills, and effortless "exercise" devices. A lot of people want a shortcut. A magical solution. A secret aiming system. An effortless way to get good. They want to believe and listen to those who preach to the great unwashed with all the fervor of a tent-revival fire and brimstone preacher. If you don't believe, you aren't trying hard enough -- just give yourself over. Drink the kool-aid and toast to the founders.

I guess too many do not wish to hear that, unless you are a natural, you have to play 10,000 hours and hit millions of balls, all the while concentrating and learning as you go along.

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

Lou:

Great post. While aiming "systems" (which ghostball is not, btw) may help a beginner/practiced-novice arrive at a fire control "solution," they are not "be all, end all" solutions to the game. I've even heard one advocate of a currently-discussed-here aiming system call his a pool "cheat code," which just goes to show the underlying motive behind this aiming "system."

You know something? Pool seems to be the only cue sport where we see these "short cuts" or "cheat codes" to aiming even being discussed. And yet pool is:

1. The one pocket-based cue sport where the pocket size themselves, in relation to the object ball, are the most gracious! They are much bigger targets than the pockets in other cue sports. In Snooker, the pockets are only a small percentage larger than the object balls themselves:
   
   
   
   
   
   ...and in Russian Pyramid, the ball-to-pocket-size ratio is even smaller than that (2mm clearance on either side of the object ball!):
   
   
   
   
   
2. The size of the table in pool is smaller. Even the "mighty" 9-footer in pool PALES in comparison to the enormous 12-footer tables common in other cue sports, like Snooker and Russian Pyramid.

So we have a cue sport where the tables are smaller, the pockets are bigger, and yet, we Americans *still* need a cheat code! If we take a look at those other cue sports like Snooker and Russian Pyramid, we don't see these exotic aiming systems being discussed.

In snooker, the main aiming system used is "dummy ball," as the English call what we know here on these boards as ghostball. And this is especially true in Russian Pyramid, where the main shots taken are carom shots -- pocketing a ball by caroming it of another ball, into those unforgiving pockets. Granted, good Pyramid players shoot their shots at speed, so as to bend the horns of the pocket out of the way, but one still must be accurate to within at most, 5mm on either side. On a 12-foot table, mind you!

I think the problem many aiming-system devotees suffer from, is worrying too much about aiming, and not enough on fundamentals. In the snooker and Russian Pyramid world, fundamentals are the paramount topic of discussion. Your ability to deliver the cue ball at the intended spot on the object ball is your highest priority as a shooter. The "correct" spot on the object ball to pocket it, is secondary, and comes with time.

As another poster said (Williebetmore?), delivering that cue ball accurately is DAMN HARD. The problem with pool players for the most part, are lack of strong repeatable fundamentals. (There, I said it.) In what other pocket-based cue sport do you find the player adopting a stance where his/her head is NOT positioned at the same point / same sight-line above the cue on every single shot (e.g. chin not resting on the cue)? None other than pool. In what other pocket-based cue sport do you find advertising announcements being made about some new "Perfect Aim" system that is actually based on the correct placement of head and eyes above the cue, that guarantees better results, as if it's some world-changing "discovery"? None other than pool.

Honestly, I think we pool players need to take a strong look at how things are done in other, more-demanding cue sports. Want to see some eye-popping ball pocketing skills? Take a look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eEZxTyByg8k

Or, for even smaller pockets (clearance-wise), in Russian Pyramid which uses lots of caroms to pocket balls -- what seems to us to be "cue ball scratch fouls" are actually points in Pyramid:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IiM3tBIB9Qs

Now how do we Americans feel about our "cheat codes" for pocketing balls?

Hope I've opened at least a couple eyes.

With no disrespect,
-Sean

I think a player needs to surround themselves with the best players possible,if all you c and play with are c or less players then u will probably b in this group,my father in law played his whole life and couldnt beat anybody until his poolroom burned down when he was over 60,after he started traveling and being around good players his game went to another level,I wonder how good he could have been if he would have got the right info 30 years earlier,But in his time the info just wasnt available

sfleinen said:

Lou:

Great post. While aiming "systems" (which ghostball is not, btw) may help a beginner/practiced-novice arrive at a fire control "solution," they are not "be all, end all" solutions to the game. I've even heard one advocate of a currently-discussed-here aiming system call his a pool "cheat code," which just goes to show the underlying motive behind this aiming "system."

You know something? Pool seems to be the only cue sport where we see these "short cuts" or "cheat codes" to aiming even being discussed. And yet pool is:

1. The one pocket-based cue sport where the pocket size themselves, in relation to the object ball, are the most gracious! They are much bigger targets than the pockets in other cue sports. In Snooker, the pockets are only a small percentage larger than the object balls themselves:
   
   
   
   
   
   ...and in Russian Pyramid, the ball-to-pocket-size ratio is even smaller than that (2mm clearance on either side of the object ball!):
   
   
   
   
   
2. The size of the table in pool is smaller. Even the "mighty" 9-footer in pool PALES in comparison to the enormous 12-footer tables common in other cue sports, like Snooker and Russian Pyramid.

So we have a cue sport where the tables are smaller, the pockets are bigger, and yet, we Americans *still* need a cheat code! If we take a look at those other cue sports like Snooker and Russian Pyramid, we don't see these exotic aiming systems being discussed.

In snooker, the main aiming system used is "dummy ball," as the English call what we know here on these boards as ghostball. And this is especially true in Russian Pyramid, where the main shots taken are carom shots -- pocketing a ball by caroming it of another ball, into those unforgiving pockets. Granted, good Pyramid players shoot their shots at speed, so as to bend the horns of the pocket out of the way, but one still must be accurate to within at most, 5mm on either side. On a 12-foot table, mind you!

I think the problem many aiming-system devotees suffer from, is worrying too much about aiming, and not enough on fundamentals. In the snooker and Russian Pyramid world, fundamentals are the paramount topic of discussion. Your ability to deliver the cue ball at the intended spot on the object ball is your highest priority as a shooter. The "correct" spot on the object ball to pocket it, is secondary, and comes with time.

As another poster said (Williebetmore?), delivering that cue ball accurately is DAMN HARD. The problem with pool players for the most part, are lack of strong repeatable fundamentals. (There, I said it.) In what other pocket-based cue sport do you find the player adopting a stance where his/her head is NOT positioned at the same point / same sight-line above the cue on every single shot (e.g. chin not resting on the cue)? None other than pool. In what other pocket-based cue sport do you find advertising announcements being made about some new "Perfect Aim" system that is actually based on the correct placement of head and eyes above the cue, that guarantees better results, as if it's some world-changing "discovery"? None other than pool.

Honestly, I think we pool players need to take a strong look at how things are done in other, more-demanding cue sports. Want to see some eye-popping ball pocketing skills? Take a look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eEZxTyByg8k

Or, for even smaller pockets (clearance-wise), in Russian Pyramid which uses lots of caroms to pocket balls -- what seems to us to be "cue ball scratch fouls" are actually points in Pyramid:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IiM3tBIB9Qs

Now how do we Americans feel about our "cheat codes" for pocketing balls?

Hope I've opened at least a couple eyes.

With no disrespect,
-Sean

Click to expand...

Sean, I think you've really hit on something (pun, well sorta...) The aiming systems are good for beginners to grasp some elemental issues and to get then to concentrate on a precise hit on the OB. But far more important, as you say, are the fundamentals. I have yet to figure out how, on God's good green Simonis covered earth, you are suppose to employ one of these systems -- what with all the pivoting around your bridge fingers and up in the air and around your hip -- and still maintain anything of a solid set up (I Know, I know: I'm just not trying hard enough You use one of these "systems" and when the heat comes, you are dead meat. Forget the heat, just when you need to add in different speeds, different amounts of english, varying degrees of elevation, along with all the shot specific bridges you need to work your way through a rack.

I wonder: is it pool players in general? Or just Americans? Put another way: are the Europeans and Asians buying into all this cheat code stuff?

Lou Figueroa

peteypooldude said:

I think a player needs to surround themselves with the best players possible,if all you c and play with are c or less players then u will probably b in this group,my father in law played his whole life and couldnt beat anybody until his poolroom burned down when he was over 60,after he started traveling and being around good players his game went to another level,I wonder how good he could have been if he would have got the right info 30 years earlier,But in his time the info just wasnt available

Click to expand...

This (being around good players) can be a really big help to almost anyone's game. But OTOH, after a while, if you just keep getting beat on long and hard enough, it can cause some to give up.

Lou Figueroa

Williebetmore said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Any person who has the desire can get to a low pro level IF they have proper instruction, adequate dedication (read SIGNIFICANT DEDICATION), and adequate time. It is not rocket science; but the demand for precision is way more significant than many realize. If you disagree, you should be first in line for Mark Wilson's book when it is released; as he has spent his life working to overcome the common misconception that high level pool requires some kind of magical natural ability. He discusses this very subject in great detail, and I am confident that most reasonable readers will be quite convinced by his exposition. There has never been a pool book like this one.

To me, it is almost an insult to the pro's to say that they are there because of some gift they were born with; they are there because they spent huge numbers of hours at the table to develop the repeatability and precision necessary for high level pool. They should be admired for their achievements not envied for their "gifts." JMO

Click to expand...

I have two issues with this. There are tons and tons of people (without leaving this state) who by your definition should be pro level. They took and or are taking lessons regularly, and have the dedication. By most people's definition they wouldn't even be shortstops. If I disagree I should buy Mark Wilson's book?

As far as the insult to the pro's. You weren't around during the Bruce's, Bowery, Sticks and Stones days, but if you were you would have seen the best in the state who were natural players get better, not by throwing balls out there, not by instruction, not by reading a book, but by staying in action.

One of the pros you talk about and another pro from further south used to go on the road all the time, and they got better, much better. They would play in Mr. and Miss Cue tourneys against the other players and then in ring games and get better. Around here most all the great players were naturals.

Not sure if Bobby's dad is a natural or not, but I used to go to pro tournaments and look in the program see his picture and think man I wish I could play that good. Put in a lot of time, took some instruction, and was on the road a lot.

1on1pooltournys said:

Does anybody else feel this way...??

Sorry but I couldn't resist seeing how 75% of the threads on the front page are about aiming methods that I think are bogus...

I asked two world champions about them last week and they started laughing... Just sayin...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Click to expand...

You not only need to shoot straight, you need to be properly aligned for each shot. This has nothing to do with aiming. Most players know, what to do and where to hit the object ball. The difficulty lies in the alignment and finding the line of aim. For each shot with each speed, no matter if it is straight in or with english or massé, there is only one correct line of aim. The only thing you need to do is to shoot straight down that line.
You think, you are aiming correctly, then shoot and miss by a mile. You wonder what went wrong. Was it a stroke flaw or did your "aiming system" fail? Well you definitely need to practice your stroke so you can deliver the cue on a straight line. But no aiming system in the world can help you aligning yourself properly for the shot. There are no secrets. It is pure hand-eye-coordination. If you are not talented, you can practice and figure stuff out on your own. A consistent pre-shot routine is key. Eyedominance might play a role, but I am not sure.

Williebetmore said:

To me, it is almost an insult to the pro's to say that they are there because of some gift they were born with; they are there because they spent huge numbers of hours at the table to develop the repeatability and precision necessary for high level pool. They should be admired for their achievements not envied for their "gifts." JMO

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I wanna tap tap this post. I really do. I want to agree with it really hard. I saw a neat documentary about how genius can be "made" through hard work and good instruction, you don't necessarily get born with it. They also showed examples of people who seemingly were born with it, to even things out.

I have heard stories of these pros who who were running racks at 13 and running 100 in straight at 17. At those ages, they hardly had been alive long enough to have put in the amount of hours you're talking about. Do you figure they just spent every waking moment playing pool and got in more hours than anyone would believe? Or do you figure they are the exception who got there without the grinding a regular guy would have to go through to reach that level?

sr 9ball said:

my take on these aiming systems is... anyone using a predetor shaft cant feel the shots. u cant really through the balls in the holes easly. u need a aiming system.

Click to expand...

haha, that is a FANTASTIC troll grenade. Well done. 4 stars.

:groucho: :groucho: :groucho: :groucho:

I wonder: is it pool players in general? Or just Americans? Put another way: are the Europeans and Asians buying into all this cheat code stuff?

Lou Figueroa[/QUOTE]

no..we are not............however we are having a right laugh at all you guys that are BUYING into it.

CreeDo said:

I have heard stories of these pros who who were running racks at 13 and running 100 in straight at 17. At those ages, they hardly had been alive long enough to have put in the amount of hours you're talking about. Do you figure they just spent every waking moment playing pool and got in more hours than anyone would believe? Or do you figure they are the exception who got there without the grinding a regular guy would have to go through to reach that level?

Click to expand...

C-man,
I'm not really sure I should be discussing this sort of thing (it is not my original premise; but rather the subject of an as yet unpublished book by someone else). A short answer would be yes, those younger athletes have put in adequate hours to achieve proficiency with adequate instruction (or enough ability that they didn't need instruction to go along with the hours).

In response to another poster, I never said instruction was the only way to achieve it; rather that with proper instruction anyone COULD achieve pro level play if they had the dedication. The devilish part of this game is that even with endless hours a player might not get proficient (the precision needed is difficult to even see, much less achieve).

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion. Once Mark publishes this book you can be sure that there will be endless threads on several premises he discusses. It will be EXTREMELY unique, controversial (for some), educational, and most of all INSPIRATIONAL for those players who truly do want to play high quality pool (and are willing to make the sacrifices to get there). After reading it, I have no doubt at all that anyone can become a low pro level player.

Williebetmore said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Any person who has the desire can get to a low pro level IF they have proper instruction, adequate dedication (read SIGNIFICANT DEDICATION), and adequate time. It is not rocket science; but the demand for precision is way more significant than many realize. If you disagree, you should be first in line for Mark Wilson's book when it is released; as he has spent his life working to overcome the common misconception that high level pool requires some kind of magical natural ability. He discusses this very subject in great detail, and I am confident that most reasonable readers will be quite convinced by his exposition. There has never been a pool book like this one.

To me, it is almost an insult to the pro's to say that they are there because of some gift they were born with; they are there because they spent huge numbers of hours at the table to develop the repeatability and precision necessary for high level pool. They should be admired for their achievements not envied for their "gifts." JMO

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Many skeptics will point out people who have practiced for years and years and never improved but if you look at those players they're not really practicing seriously. The ones who are dedicated and dead serious succeed.

Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers gives an abundance of evidence that it's hard work in almost any field that seperates the great ones from everyone else. Another great book is Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. Both books go into studies where it has been found that 10,000 hours of focused practice are what it takes to succeed.

I actually think that to get to the A-level or better, you need to have SMARTS. You are just going to have to trust me....I play with a lot of guys that play pool 5 nights a week in leagues and also practice a lot....and they will NEVER become an "A" player....and the word "pro" being associated with their name in any context, a low pro or not, would be just laughable....

IMO....you can be coached by an instructor to have a straight stroke and good alignment....but some people just can't "see" many shots and are not able to use extreme english, etc., that is needed to be able to play at a high level...

Again, it's just my opinion....but I know so many players in this situation....all of the desire, instruction, practice in the world just isn't going to get them there...

leedschief said:

I wonder: is it pool players in general? Or just Americans? Put another way: are the Europeans and Asians buying into all this cheat code stuff?

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

no..we are not............however we are having a right laugh at all you guys that are BUYING into it.[/QUOTE]



OK, great, so you're laughing at us.

BFD. Some of us are laughing at our own countrymen.

OTT -- do you have something of value to add to the discussion? Or are you just here to reinforce our Yankee opinion of certain folks from particular nations

Lou Figueroa
I know you're not French
but you're close ;-)

Bobby said:

I couldn't agree more. Many skeptics will point out people who have practiced for years and years and never improved but if you look at those players they're not really practicing seriously. The ones who are dedicated and dead serious succeed.

Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers gives an abundance of evidence that it's hard work in almost any field that seperates the great ones from everyone else. Another great book is Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. Both books go into studies where it has been found that 10,000 hours of focused practice are what it takes to succeed.

Click to expand...

Bobby,

You and Williebetmore and others are not taking into consideration that there are other factors beside dedicated practice, professional instruction, and other learning tools in the quest to getting to "A" level in pool. I practice regularly EVERYDAY. Hard practice several hours daily. I have had professional instruction. I have many books, video, and other learning tools at my disposal. No matter how bad I would like to reach the "A" level, it cannot happen for me. Why? Two words: Physical limitations. I have poor eyesight (I wear billiard eyeglasses when I shoot). I have poor depth-perception. I have chronic lower lumbar spasms. I have discs in my neck that are in pieces. I have had shoulder surgeries on BOTH shoulders causing loss of range-of-motion in both (shooting a "jacked-up" shot or elevating the cue more than 45 degrees causes pain). I don't know if this affects my poolplaying or not, but I also have a heart arrhythmia, plus my heart is thickened and enlarged (for which I take three prescriptions for). Basically, I'm blind, stiff, and am short of breath and endurance.

So to all you HEALTHY players with lofty aspirations, I say God bless you and wish you all the luck in getting to where you want to go in pool. But those like myself, even with dreams of getting to a high level, it just ain't gonna happen and I've come to terms with it, and I'm sure many others have too.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear :wink:!!!

Maniac

lfigueroa said:

I know many guys that want nothing more in life than to be good pool players and would kill to get to low pro-level. They've taken instruction, they watch the videos, buy the latest low-deflection thingie, and they put in hundreds, if not thousands of hours playing, practicing, doing drills, playing leagues, tournaments, match-up etc. (they even memorize the aiming systems But to no avail. They get gooder, but are far from anything resembling low pro-status, even after 30 years or more of play.

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

Lou,
Very true. We know the same guys:smile:. Unfortunately what you describe has been the traditional thought on "how to get good" and it is NOT a reliable way to get there (though it is possible as evidenced by the many pro's who took that route). This game is freaking difficult...way more difficult than it looks to the players you are describing.

I believe that with proper instruction many of those players could have made it...unfortunately such instruction is very hard to come by, and not widely available. It is such a great game, it is sad that players with such interest could not have been cultivated into great players - in my view the major reason the game is not more popular than it is. It is a game with great initial attraction; but the culture of the game and the hidden difficulty just kill the initial enthusiasm in many potential pool fanatics.

Maniac said:

Bobby,


You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear :wink:!!!

Maniac

Click to expand...

Maniac,
Very true.

There are however some great wheelchair players, and even a couple of players born WITH NO ARMS that can play better than most of our forum members. It's not rocket science, but it is demanding.

Williebetmore said:

Maniac,
Very true.

There are however some great wheelchair players, and even a couple of players born WITH NO ARMS that can play better than most of our forum members. It's not rocket science, but it is demanding.

Click to expand...

Yes, there are a lot of physically impaired players who are very good at the game. The very best wheelchair players are NOT "A" level players (they ARE damn good though considering their lot in life), which is what you and Bobby (and a couple of others) were implying that ANY person could do. Not to start an argument here, but let me quote you on post #58 on page 4 of this thread: "Any person who has the desire can get to a low pro level IF they have proper instruction, adequate dedication (read SIGNIFICANT DEDICATION), and adequate time." You respectfully disagreed with one of my statements, and I respectfully disagree with your statement on post #58. It takes more than desire for many people to get to a low pro level. Some simply cannot achieve it, no matter how dedicated the effort.

Maniac