Are pool schools worth the money?

Wags said:

Let me sum this up for everyone and bring this thread to a close. In any endeavor, Instructors are for gaining knowledge, Mastery of that knowledge is up to the student.

GMT - you get the last word and I am gone from this thread.

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OK, thanks. In any endeavor....there are no guarantees. An instructor is not necessarily anything more than someone who wants you to pay them to talk to you. There are DEFINITELY bad ones, there are almost certainly ones that can offer help to some students--and the (vast) remainder are an open question; and there aren't many definitive methods to tell one from another, or whether they can help YOU as an individual.

OTOH it IS true that one can learn to play very well without formal instruction. For those who would follow that route I would recommend Dr. Dave's website and materials, anything written by Bob Jewett, and putting some accu-stat videos of GREAT PLAYERS PLAYING GREAT on order.

SpiderWebComm said:

It's hard to believe you would suggest getting a lesson from a good qualified instructor is a "fad."

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It is--at least in exactly the manner it's carried out now. I doubt very much you could find more than a few people thirty years ago who would claim that their career and living was as a "pool instructor." (and you might not find any--there are people here who could answer that question definitively, I'm sure). Now "full-time professional pool instructors" seem to be sprouting like weeds.

I have taken lessons three time from three different instructors. Number one instructor of the three was without a doubt Mark Wilson. He will work your butt off and will not teach you if you are unwilling to give 110 %. Individual instruction is the best. Group therapy is of little use.

May I remind everyone that the solution to having a peaceful thread is to use the Super Ignore feature?

Read my AZ blog about how to use it. I just read this thread and didn't see even one of GetMeThere's posts. I did however see people's responses to his posts.

It's easy, be your own moderator and when the trolls realize that no one is playing along they will either leave or self-destruct in spectactular fashion. Either way the forum is blissful when they are rendered invisible.

You can be your own moderator and simply elect to ignore certain posters or even entire threads. For example I got rid of all the stickies.

I guarantee you that if you choose to Super Ignore someone that they will go away. It's a stone cold fact that internet trolls have to fed with controversey. Withhold that food and they go away. About the only time that this is not true is when someone is borderline insane and invents dozens of usernames to argue with themselves. I'd bet that GMT is not insane but instead just a person who enjoys being contrary for sport.

JB Cases said:

May I remind everyone that the solution to having a peaceful thread is to use the Super Ignore feature?

Read my AZ blog about how to use it. I just read this thread and didn't see even one of GetMeThere's posts. I did however see people's responses to his posts.

It's easy, be your own moderator and when the trolls realize that no one is playing along they will either leave or self-destruct in spectactular fashion. Either way the forum is blissful when they are rendered invisible.

You can be your own moderator and simply elect to ignore certain posters or even entire threads. For example I got rid of all the stickies.

I guarantee you that if you choose to Super Ignore someone that they will go away. It's a stone cold fact that internet trolls have to fed with controversey. Withhold that food and they go away. About the only time that this is not true is when someone is borderline insane and invents dozens of usernames to argue with themselves. I'd bet that GMT is not insane but instead just a person who enjoys being contrary for sport.

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I reported this post to the moderators. The report I gave was this:

"I don't think John Barton should be able to come into a thread for the only purpose to ANNOUNCE to everyone that he has blocked me and that I'm "insane" and not bother to even post ANYTHING AT ALL on the topic of the thread. If that is not useless "attacking" behavior for the sole purpose of being disruptive, I don't know what is."

After I read your post more carefully I see that you're "betting" that I'm "not insane," but the disparaging implication remains, nonetheless--and is tantamount to name-calling.

Do you realize that you have come to this thread ONLY to attack someone and make a useless and nasty post? You have not addressed the topic of the thread AT ALL.

GetMeThere said:

Yeah. I learned in a pool hall. Whaddya think, somebody folded their arms around me and showed me how to stroke



I didn't say instruction has to be bad.

I'm trying to say that people are becoming "instruction crazy" and think it can easily solve all their problems. And I'm saying that just because somebody calls themselves an "instructor" is no guarantee that they CAN actually offer you something truly useful and of value.

....and I'm saying that there's not much of a clear way to definitively and objectively determine whether the instruction someone wishes to offer is worthy or worthless.

Instruction is excellent in THEORY. In practice....it's a minefield. Furthermore, in pool, experience shows that it has been possible for many to learn to play very well without instruction.

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I was part of a team of instructors for several years and for the most important aspect of the instruction we had a 100% success rate. We had thousands of students come through the school and not one of them died.

The sport was skydiving.

Does anyone care to take up skydiving without instruction?

Steve

He can't see what you wrote.

GetMeThere said:

I reported this post to the moderators. The report I gave was this:

"I don't think John Barton should be able to come into a thread for the only purpose to ANNOUNCE to everyone that he has blocked me and that I'm "insane" and not bother to even post ANYTHING AT ALL on the topic of the thread. If that is not useless "attacking" behavior for the sole purpose of being disruptive, I don't know what is."

After I read your post more carefully I see that you're "betting" that I'm "not insane," but the disparaging implication remains, nonetheless--and is tantamount to name-calling.

Do you realize that you have come to this thread ONLY to attack someone and make a useless and nasty post? You have not addressed the topic of the thread AT ALL.

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cwilmeth said:

I'm 37 years old, been playing pool seriously since about 91. Don't really gamble much anymore but play a lot of tournaments. I've been wanting to improve my game a little and was just wondering if these schools I hear about are worth the money. Or is it to late? Can't teach an old signee tricks ?

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I can't speak about the actual pool schools. But I can tell you that I have taken lessons from instructors who are amateur level players and also lessons from pros. Amateur level instructors are GREAT at finding the weaknesses that creep into your game and helping you to correct them. They give you structure and foundation to build on and rely on.

Pros give you tips and tricks that come from years of experience on the battlefield. If they give you a system it's because they use it in battle. They give you insight that you can only get from someone who has "been there".

Pool schools give you great workouts and help you to get steady. Very few people come away from pool school saying that they didn't learn anything.

You sound like me but with more experience running around with better players. I prefer to do anything but WORK on my game. Come crunch time I have to be in the right frame of mind or my game deteriorates quickly. The times in my life where I have put in the time on drills and solid fundamentals after getting lessons have paid dividends. I can point to a couple times where I have won tournaments or made good scores based purely on my dedication to practicing what I learned in a lesson shortly prior to booking the winner.

My advice is to go to pool school to work on your fundamentals and go to professional players to work on your strategy. I know a lot about one pocket now because of several lessons I took with champion one pocket players. I know how to execute those shots because of working on my fundamentals through lessons with top flight instructors.

randyg said:

Let's go now, why wait.....
randyg

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Randy, you can't go! I've only been to the intermediate class twice. I need to do that a time or two more and hit up the expert class a few times!

In all seriousness, guys, I've been to a couple of RandyG's classes taught with Carl Oswalt, along with a handful of buddies from the Austin area. A few of the students that went with us never really improved any more than their normal gameplay, because as soon as they got home, they went back to their old habits. Any of us that stuck with it improved, and want to give Randy more money, even to go back to retake the SAME CLASS, sometimes 3 or 4 times.

I know that's anecdotal evidence, but it's true. My game has improved. Oh, and Randy did include the lesson on how to play at a pro level. I'm still not there, because I haven't decided to sell my house, leave my wife and kids, quit my job, and play pool 8 hours a day, 7 days a week.

If possible, I do recommend taking a class with a group of friends. I think I've held onto the mechanics far better because I can say, "hey, Andy, pay attention to the angle of my arm, or to my pre-shot routine, or whatever" while I'm shooting a league match, and he knows exactly what to critique. It also helps when we're coaching each other in league or trying to teach each other things, because he quantifies the speed of a shot. Instead of having to think that my "medium speed" is a lot softer than your "medium speed", with his training, I know that my "3-speed" is the same as your "3-speed".

Really though, to whoever said Pool School should be measured by how many pros are churned out by an instructor, that argument doesn't work. Pool school alone doesn't make you a pro. It teaches you the fundamentals of how to play the game properly, and how to evaluate yourself periodically to get your game off of a stagnant plateau. You'll never be a pro without the practice and drilling to instill those fundamentals into muscle memory.

RandyG lets you retake a class for a significant discount, and I feel that it's worth it solely for the benefit of having a well-versed instructor go over videos of my stroke to see how well I've stayed in form, and give me tips to get back to perfect form. The added content each retake is an added bonus (Instructors learn too -- their classes always evolve).

Sorry for the long post, and always be on the lookout for the Murphys. --elint

[EDIT: I'd like to add that my experience with Pool School has been with RandyG's school in Dallas. I'm not trying to sell for RandyG -- I've heard from the boards, and I believe from RandyG himself (don't quote me on that), that other SPF instructors across the nation have comparable programs. If you're not in the Dallas area and RandyG's not coming to your area, there are probably still some very accessible SPF instructors around, but I can only vouch for RandyG, as he's the only pool school instructor I've had]

If you really want to know what you are doing wrong with your stroke, what you are doing wrong with cue tip position (english, top, bottom and center) and what you are doing wrong with patterns then it is worth every darn penny you spend.

Talent can only get you so far.... With that you have to have knowledge in spades...

In the good old days you seemed to have hotbeds of great players. Chicago, New York, L.A./Oakland, Boston... All major metro areas where the good players beat on each other constantly and became great players...They didn't have instructors they had each other and the only way information was shared was to be a part of the subculture and be taken in under a few wings. No one gave out information for free.

You paid for instruction by the rack or set.... And you had to be an observant student because you were going to learn by watching.. Noone was going to feed it you aside from a tip here or a tip there....

Today the information they guarded so heavily is available. You can order books, instructional dvds and professional matches... You have a better chance of being able to teach yourself to play great than you ever have had in history.




Well that actually depends on how you learn...

Many people cannot learn from reading books. The printed word just will not translate for them into practical understanding. It may be reading comprehension or they may just hate reading...

Many people are what are called natural mimics.. They can watch someone do something and immediately reproduce what they visually observed... This is a rare talent but we all have the ability it's just not developed in most of us. That's one reason I like watching matches I have a decent ability in this area. I see a safety played I never thought about file it in my head and shoot it the next night over and over until I own it. Others could watch the entire accustats library and only pick up shot selections.

Watching DVDs should work as well as instruction IF the DVD actually covered what you were weak in... confirmed your strengths... And was presented so eloquently that you understood everything covered without having to digest and rewind sections in efforts to understand the materials... To this date I have yet to see THAT DVD...

SO if books don't work.. You are not a mimic.. And you just cant seem to get it from the DVDs whats left?

1)Go out and hit a million balls.. That's pretty much how the great players had to do it.... Maybe with Earl he only had to hit 400-500K but he did it by rote.

OR

2)Get some instruction and only have to it 600-800k to reach your potential. Notice I said potential you may not be wold class because we all aren't cut from that bolt of cloth

Many players have to be taught one on one... That's the best way they learn ad it's often key if they are trying to break through a barrier... Even then the lessons have to be tailored to the person...

A good instructor can look into a student's eyes and tell whether or not they "got" it or if the instructor needs to rephrase the materials and go over it again. This is their greatest skill. It's not their skill with the cue that you need but their ability to communicate knowledge that you require in a manner where you can actually comprehend and retain it.

So after all that... Back to the OP's question... Are pool schools worth it?
Short answer: Yes as long as the classes aren't too large for you to get personal attention.

I would prefer taking one on one lessons if you are lucky enough to have a good instructor close to you so they can tailor the lesson plan to you and not to just covering course materials since some material will be more useful. If you don't have someone local, book the school... Spend the days.. It's going to be a whole lot of info stuffed into a small window, but it's info you may take years to learn on your own and there may just be some small pieces/systems/tricks that you never would have dreamed up.

The Renfro said:

Many players have to be taught one on one... That's the best way they learn ad it's often key if they are trying to break through a barrier... Even then the lessons have to be tailored to the person...

A good instructor can look into a student's eyes and tell whether or not they "got" it or if the instructor needs to rephrase the materials and go over it again. This is their greatest skill. It's not their skill with the cue that you need but their ability to communicate knowledge that you require in a manner where you can actually comprehend and retain it.

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I agree with this completely, Renfro. I'd suggest starting with a pool school (in an 2-on-8 scenario), then go back to your practice and perfect that as much as possible, then seek 1-on-1 training. I think you'd waste a lot of money and time by learning the fundamentals of the game in a 1-on-1 scenario, though.

--elint

Actually it is a MYTH that billiard instruction has been hard to come by in the past. In the past there were numerous LONG books written on how to play. In addition there were instructors in every city who would take on students.

Just look at pool magazines from the 20s and you can see that there were instructors.

If any of you honestly think that ANY player got great with no help then I have a bridge to sell you. Of course there are some who got good without "formal" instruction but I bet SUPER LARGE that you won't find one player in the history of the world who got to pro class speed with ZERO instruction be that in the form of personal tips from others or reading about technique or video study of techniques.

I really doubt that there is any world class player who got there by observation and battle alone. And if there is then he or she is the exception rather than the rule.

GetMeThere said:

Testimonials are notorious for being unreliable. You will invariably find both "best ever" and "worse than being hit in the head" testimonials for ALL INSTRUCTORS.

First: To use testimonials objectively you would have to COLLECT THEM in a reliable and useful manner--simply not the case here. For NO pool school do we have a complete record of the opinions of all students. It's easy to end up with a biased sample: people who are unhappy with their instruction often prefer to say nothing. Many others will say "Oh, it was good" only because they already spent the money and don't want to consider too closely whether it was actually well spent.

Second: Even if you DID have a full, explicit, and well-designed reporting system from students, the problem of self-reporting of "improvement" is, and always has been, a very difficult data problem to resolve. People often have a very poor perception of how their performance changes, and the CAUSES of changes in their performance.

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Please! Please!
Don't ever go to a group lesson.
You would spend the class time arguing instead of listening and trying to absorb the information provided.

For the record, some of the instructors mentioned here have been sought out by some top snooker players when they came to the U.S. to play 9-Ball.
They satisfy your odd demand that only students winning big money tournaments establishes a pool school's reputation.

Most top snooker players in the U.K. have coaches, and win more money than you do.

Many coaches, not just pool coaches, use video.
Lots of people refuse to acknowledge their technical deficiencies until they see themselves on the screen and get dissected frame by frame.
I just know you do not want to be subjected to that humiliation.

I think this is very important, so I'll quote it.

Scaramouche said:

Lots of people refuse to acknowledge their technical deficiencies until they see themselves on the screen and get dissected frame by frame.

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Is this fact or your opinion?

Lets go down this little list because all of these men are instructing currently:

Jim Rempe
Johnny Archer
John Schmidt

You still want to make that argument below? Of course I suppose you have an out because you state "almost invariably"

There are many motivations for people to become instructors. One of which is they like to interact positively with people, a trait that I am afraid you don't have.

GetMeThere said:

And let's not forget, almost invariably, those who become "instructors" have failed in their own playing aspirations. If anything, they have shown themselves to have FAILED to improve their own abilities to the extent they thought they should be able to.

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I agree a lot of champions have been taken under someone's wing as they were developing.

John Schmidt -- Bobby Hunter
Mike Coltraine -- Johnny Archer
Nick Varner -- Hubert Cokes

JB Cases said:

Actually it is a MYTH that billiard instruction has been hard to come by in the past. In the past there were numerous LONG books written on how to play. In addition there were instructors in every city who would take on students.

Just look at pool magazines from the 20s and you can see that there were instructors.

If any of you honestly think that ANY player got great with no help then I have a bridge to sell you. Of course there are some who got good without "formal" instruction but I bet SUPER LARGE that you won't find one player in the history of the world who got to pro class speed with ZERO instruction be that in the form of personal tips from others or reading about technique or video study of techniques.

I really doubt that there is any world class player who got there by observation and battle alone. And if there is then he or she is the exception rather than the rule.

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Wow...

For almost 2 years i tried it on my own, and believe me...I tried. I practice for hours and since I wouldn't gamble, no one would help me. The standing joke in the poolroom was "He won't run more than five balls!" I ran drills, bought books, ect. I went to pool school a couple of months ago and I play better, plain and simple. RandyG "unlocked" my game. You are pathethic for knocking instructors and do a great disservice to the game. Certified SPF instruction ROCKS!!!!! If you come to DCC I will show you....

there are two things required for a player to reach their true potential. getting in the pit a bunch, and losing... and hitting a crap ton of balls.

there is just no way a human will be motivated enough to play his or her best if they have not experienced that sting of losing so bad, and wanting nothing more than to never make that mistake again. you sit there for hours practicing so it doesnt happen again. this is the formula... i have been around long enough to see and realize there is no other way. a pool school can hasten this process, and each person has to decide if that is "worth it," but notice!! a pool school is NOT one of the required 2 things for a person to reach their top potential.... it just isnt.

Hmmmm

GetMeThere said:

ChicagoRJ said:

Most of your post is about other sports. I'm specifically talking only about pool. I've seen ALL SORTS of people play pool really amazingly well--even old, fat, and badly out of shape people. The physical requirements of pool are not great.

Regarding McCready: his father "teaching him" is (probably) something much different from the experience of "instruction" as it's being sold nowadays. I don't suppose you're now going to tell me that his father was a "certified SPF instructor" are you? From the Diliberto story I read, McCready was actually SLEEPING at the pool hall--which doesn't suggest much about his father being a good and supportive influence on him.

And, as I've tried to suggest in other threads, I'm not a big buyer of the "phenom" tale/myth in pool. Sure, some people take to it quicker than others, but, unlike some other sports or talents (math and chess, for example) there's not much good evidence I've seen for pool being a "prodigy" class of activity. Pool is a relatively simple game which kids can get quite good at quite quickly IF they happen to be really interested in it.

The evidence I've seen suggests that, at least up nearing the pro level, the key determining factor for how well someone plays is their motivation and determination to play well--including an abiding interest that keeps them at the table for long hours.

Although it's clear to me that some players (Earl, and Ronnie O'Sullivan come to mind) have some special sauce that others don't. But those players have been and continue to be beaten when their special sauce doesn't happen to be working that day.

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Every sport has a "prodigy factor" even pool. I played a kid, who was 13 or 14, at DCC last year in the AZB room. Can't remember his name now, but I'm sure others on AZB do. Only playing pool for less than 2 years...yeah, he got that good and that smart at one pocket just by picking it up quickly??? This kid sees the shot before he gets out of his chair and that its quite scary! There is something in his brain that I'm obviously missing as well as many others in the pool world. He's real good now, but in a few years, he's gonna be a MONSTER. He is a prodigy who has also been given very good lessons. Quite the deadly combination.

I've been teaching my son pool for two years now, and he doesn't seem to really follow the strategy or the shots, but throw him in a Karate tourney, and he is a beast and recalls every combo of kicks, punches, and defenesive moves imaginable and he just took first place in a midwest tourney. So go figure.

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