Shaft Deflection - can it be changed without changing diamater?

DWoods6354

DWoods6354

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi,

I have a cue by a custom maker with two ivory ferruled 13mm shafts. I love the look and feel of the cue but do not play with it much because it squirts the cue ball way too much. This cue was built by a well-known old-school cuemaker with a good reputation. The shafts are matched at 4.2 ounces each.

With an 8 to 9 inch bridge, if I want to put left or right english on the ball - I can pivot my back hand and the cueball will travel a path similar to the aiming line before the pivot. The problem is I am not comfortable with the (post pivot) aim line being so far from the cue ball path. Longer distances, different weight cue balls, harder hit, all seem to be variables that keep me from feeling like I can really perform with this cue.

I have other customs with the same ivory ferrules and shaft diamater - and if I use this method to aim with them - I would be way off... I can almost use a parallel aim line when applying english with either my JossWest or Scruggs.

I have heard squirt (what we used to call deflection) is a product of shaft end mass - and not many seem to attribute this to shaft taper or tip these days.

My question is - can my shafts be "retapered" to perform similar to my JW and Scruggs - or - can the tips be the problem (my cuemaker uses only his own tips) - or can the shaft end mass be lightened without loss of diamater or ivory? Basically how do I make this cue play like my other two?

Looking forward to some knowledgable recommendations. Thanks in advance.

Dan
 
I believe shaft diameter and taper have something to do with cueball squirt, but since your given parameters say all the shafts have the same diameters and ivory ferrules, we still have to go back to end mass.
End mass can be affected by a variety of things. For instance, there are different ways to install a ferrule.
Is it capped and if so, how thick is the cap?
Is it threaded and if so, how thick is the tenon?
Could your cuemaker's "exclusive" tips be impregnated with anything that would make them heavier?
All of these make a difference in the end mass of a shaft. These are all part of construction technique and you can't see the difference once the cue has been built.

Hope this helps,
~Beau
 
What???

Willy Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Babe Cranfield, Luther Lassiter, Irving Crane,,,,,,,,,, etc, etc... didn't have any concern about squirt, deflection.

You have been listening too much to all the hype about OB (isn't that a tampon?) shafts and the like.

Stop thinking about it and learn to shoot pool with your equipment. You won't pocket any more balls or win any more games with "low deflection shafts". It won't make you shoot better, it will only make you shoot differently. And then you will have to learn to shoot with a low deflection shaft. HUH?

Kim
 
My question is - can my shafts be "retapered" to perform similar to my JW and Scruggs - or - can the tips be the problem (my cuemaker uses only his own tips) - or can the shaft end mass be lightened without loss of diamater or ivory? Basically how do I make this cue play like my other two?

Looking forward to some knowledgable recommendations. Thanks in advance.

Dan[/QUOTE]



START WITH THE TIPS...PUT ON WHAT THE JW AND SCRUGGS HAVE
CHEAPEST,, NON PERMENANT AND OBVIOUS FIRST MODIFICATION

THEN U CAN RETAPER IF THAT DIDNT DO IT
 
seahorse1877 said:
I agree, the greats didn't worry about deflection.
Click to expand...

The wood was way better in their times.

My Runde had one used shaft when I got it, 12.75. It threw like crazy. About 2 or 3 inches down from the ferrule it was around 12.4 from the crappy green Brillo pads. I had the shaft taken down to match the lower spot and it was like a different cue. Stiff with little to no deflection. My D. Hill is 12.4mm at the ferrules and 13mm 2.5" down. I only stroke in the full area, who strokes the last 2 inches, and there is a ton of stank with no noticeable deflection. My 60's titlist conversion is a full 13mm, but the wood feels amazing. Dense and cold, feels like glass at times. I don't think you can say the word deflection while the cue is in your hands.
 
PDX said:
The wood was way better in their times.

My Runde had one used shaft when I got it, 12.75. It threw like crazy. About 2 or 3 inches down from the ferrule it was around 12.4 from the crappy green Brillo pads. I had the shaft taken down to match the lower spot and it was like a different cue. Stiff with little to no deflection. My D. Hill is 12.4mm at the ferrules and 13mm 2.5" down. I only stroke in the full area, who strokes the last 2 inches, and there is a ton of stank with no noticeable deflection. My 60's titlist conversion is a full 13mm, but the wood feels amazing. Dense and cold, feels like glass at times. I don't think you can say the word deflection while the cue is in your hands.
Click to expand...
I think you're confusing flex for deflection.
Two different things.
 
Deflection is caused by the mass at the tip end versus the overall mass. Thinner taper, lighter/less dense ferrule, different tip (maybe medium or medium soft single layer), any or all would have some effect. I'd start with a tip replacement, then look at getting the shafts turned down a quarter mm or so. Did you start out playing with LD shafts and go back to stock? Reason I ask is I've never liked LD shafts, and have shot with/owned stock shafts from all over the place in terms of deflection, diameter and ferrule material, but can play about the same with all of them. Doesn't take more than a couple of racks for me to site them in when switching back and forth. Sometimes a new type of tip can give you a headache...those can take a little getting used to, so maybe the tips this guy uses are a little too foreign to your touch?
 
You could always have someone drill out the last 6" of the shaft (like the predator) and this would give you less deflection.
 
DWoods6354 said:
Hi,

I have a cue by a custom maker with two ivory ferruled 13mm shafts. I love the look and feel of the cue but do not play with it much because it squirts the cue ball way too much. This cue was built by a well-known old-school cuemaker with a good reputation. The shafts are matched at 4.2 ounces each.

With an 8 to 9 inch bridge, if I want to put left or right english on the ball - I can pivot my back hand and the cueball will travel a path similar to the aiming line before the pivot. The problem is I am not comfortable with the (post pivot) aim line being so far from the cue ball path. Longer distances, different weight cue balls, harder hit, all seem to be variables that keep me from feeling like I can really perform with this cue.

I have other customs with the same ivory ferrules and shaft diamater - and if I use this method to aim with them - I would be way off... I can almost use a parallel aim line when applying english with either my JossWest or Scruggs.

I have heard squirt (what we used to call deflection) is a product of shaft end mass - and not many seem to attribute this to shaft taper or tip these days.

My question is - can my shafts be "retapered" to perform similar to my JW and Scruggs - or - can the tips be the problem (my cuemaker uses only his own tips) - or can the shaft end mass be lightened without loss of diamater or ivory? Basically how do I make this cue play like my other two?

Looking forward to some knowledgable recommendations. Thanks in advance.

Dan
Click to expand...

How much more deflection are you seeing with this shaft compared to the ones you are comparing it to?
Are you talking 1/2 ball width on a 9 ft table shooting from the head string line?
If you are talking about a 1/2 ball to 3/4 ball more ,over about that distance, then you will need to reduce the tip mass for the 1st 3 inches by approximately 3 grams.
How you choose to do this is up to you and your cuemaker.
 
a 1/2 ball to 3/4 ball more ,over about that distance, then you will need to reduce the tip mass for the 1st 3 inches by approximately 3 grams.
How you choose to do this is up to you and your cuemaker.[/QUOTE]


can i ask how you come up with this .. not doubting you just real curious !!

would this mean a predator 314 with a new mori hard vs. the same shaft
with half a tip left ( probably 3 grams ) would have 1/2 a ball less deflection or is there a point of diminishing returns ?
 
Mojocues said:
a 1/2 ball to 3/4 ball more ,over about that distance, then you will need to reduce the tip mass for the 1st 3 inches by approximately 3 grams.
How you choose to do this is up to you and your cuemaker.
Click to expand...


can i ask how you come up with this .. not doubting you just real curious !!

would this mean a predator 314 with a new mori hard vs. the same shaft
with half a tip left ( probably 3 grams ) would have 1/2 a ball less deflection or is there a point of diminishing returns ?[/QUOTE]

You are right, it is diminishing returns, but the tips themselves,are fairly much of a muchness as far as mass goes, a full tip at 13mm is more mass than a worn out tip on an 11mm shaft.
I have been making tip holders with increased weight, adjustable in 1 gram increments to + 4 grams. They are brass rods that screw into the tip holder.
I also made some very light tip holders .6 grams lighter, but my inconsistent shooting ability could not determine the difference.
I certainly could see the 1g increase over the standard and lighter than standard tip holders.
Apart from the extra light holder, the adjusted weight was used on the same tip and holder. The same brand tip and radius is on the two tip holders for the test.
4g made more than a ball difference.
 
very neat info ... i have some "lead duct tape " for tuning my golf clubs im gonna play with this some
 
whammo57 said:
Willy Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Babe Cranfield, Luther Lassiter, Irving Crane,,,,,,,,,, etc, etc... didn't have any concern about squirt, deflection.

You have been listening too much to all the hype about OB (isn't that a tampon?) shafts and the like.

Stop thinking about it and learn to shoot pool with your equipment. You won't pocket any more balls or win any more games with "low deflection shafts". It won't make you shoot better, it will only make you shoot differently. And then you will have to learn to shoot with a low deflection shaft. HUH?

Kim
Click to expand...
If it won't make me shoot better but will make me shoot different,might that different end up being better?All the old great tennis players use to use wooden rackets,does that mean all the new ones are just a gimmick?If Federer used a wooden racket now he might never win another point.LD shafts have been proven to work over the years if thats what your looking for but think its a unfair analogy to bring up what the old players used when LD shafts like Predator were not offered to those players in those times.
 
DWoods6354 said:
Hi,

I have a cue by a custom maker with two ivory ferruled 13mm shafts. I love the look and feel of the cue but do not play with it much because it squirts the cue ball way too much. This cue was built by a well-known old-school cuemaker with a good reputation. The shafts are matched at 4.2 ounces each.

With an 8 to 9 inch bridge, if I want to put left or right english on the ball - I can pivot my back hand and the cueball will travel a path similar to the aiming line before the pivot. The problem is I am not comfortable with the (post pivot) aim line being so far from the cue ball path. Longer distances, different weight cue balls, harder hit, all seem to be variables that keep me from feeling like I can really perform with this cue.

I have other customs with the same ivory ferrules and shaft diamater - and if I use this method to aim with them - I would be way off... I can almost use a parallel aim line when applying english with either my JossWest or Scruggs.

I have heard squirt (what we used to call deflection) is a product of shaft end mass - and not many seem to attribute this to shaft taper or tip these days.

My question is - can my shafts be "retapered" to perform similar to my JW and Scruggs - or - can the tips be the problem (my cuemaker uses only his own tips) - or can the shaft end mass be lightened without loss of diamater or ivory? Basically how do I make this cue play like my other two?

Looking forward to some knowledgable recommendations. Thanks in advance.

Dan
Click to expand...
in my opinion ivory might add cue value and playability for players that don't mind deflection but for myself i hate deflection and every ivory ferruled shaft I've ever played with I never liked.I know some makers like Barnhart that use short Ivory ferrules and they might play better but to me the longer the ivory ferrule the worse.If he wants less deflection change the ferrule to a different material.Goodluck:smile:
 
What???

Whammo57 states above "You have been listening too much to all the hype about OB (isn't that a tampon?) shafts and the like.

Stop thinking about it and learn to shoot pool with your equipment".

Respectfully I simply asked cuemakers what was contributing to the differences in squirt on externally similar shafts. I don't see how this is "listening to all the hype". I've been playing with 13mm ivory ferruled shafts for 30 years. I simply now have a set of 13mm ivory ferruled shafts that play significantly different from my others. I ask a question to cuemakers about improving consistancy on these shafts without reducing shaft diameter and you have the cajones to tell me to learn to shoot pool with my equipment and then outta the blue you call OB shafts feminine hygene products? Your opinion has nothing to do with the question at all. Guess you just felt the need to trash someone elses livelyhood and my game. I dont really feel the need to stick up for Royce at OB as he is all grown up (and a gentleman) but -

If your ever in DFW - you've got action. Bring cash - and a calculator. A simple one with not too many buttons.

That boy is about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.....
 
Last edited:
conetip said:
How much more deflection are you seeing with this shaft compared to the ones you are comparing it to?
Are you talking 1/2 ball width on a 9 ft table shooting from the head string line?
If you are talking about a 1/2 ball to 3/4 ball more ,over about that distance, then you will need to reduce the tip mass for the 1st 3 inches by approximately 3 grams.
How you choose to do this is up to you and your cuemaker.
Click to expand...

I would estimate better than 3/4 of a ball corner to corner on a 9 foot table.
 
To investigate further with the shafts, you need a pair of scales.
Use an identical pair of 300 gram .01 increment scales(mainly for epoxy mixing) or something that can measure better than 1 gram.
I make balsa wood v blocks, 1 for tip, 1 for joint, try to keep centre line level.
Place the 2 scales on a level flat surface, tare the scales so the weight of the v blocks is not marring the readings. Read the scales for each end of the shafts.
When the scales are on a level even table/area, the 2 readings will equal the total weight of the shaft.If they do not, then something is out of level or alignment.
This is a crude way of looking at the weight distribution in the shaft, but on a relative bases. See what the tip values are on all the shafts that you have.
That will at least give you some basic info on what you have.
Neil
 
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