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sfleinen
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04-15-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Agreed.

I certainly learned a few things in this thread, and I am glad all of the posters contributed their knowledge and information. In fact, I think the info was interesting enough to summarize (with quotes and links to the original posts) on a new resource page: cue ball types.

If the people I quoted would like the text or citations to read differently, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave
Dave:

That looks good. Removing the references to 14.1 is good in a way (obviously you want to cater to a larger crowd than us straight poolers), but IMHO you're leaving valuable information on the table as well. For example, the issue of a lighter cue ball being undesirable in 14.1 (e.g. because of reduced ability to "hold" it [it "wants" to zing around], as well as the propensity to glance off the rack and clusters at weird angles) should be mentioned somewhere.

Thank you for the continued "go forward" practice of including the link on the forums where the citation comes from -- to maintain the context in which the information was offered!

Good job,
-Sean


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04-15-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Agreed.

I certainly learned a few things in this thread, and I am glad all of the posters contributed their knowledge and information. In fact, I think the info was interesting enough to summarize (with quotes and links to the original posts) on a new resource page: cue ball types.

If the people I quoted would like the text or citations to read differently, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave
Dave, FYI - in the link under my citation labeled "Aramith CB information", an error message pops up.

Another bit of info (or lack thereof) is that the Aramith document sent to me makes no mention of the new Black Logo ball that comes with the Tournaments. Since that is their top of the line set and it is said to be a matched set, I suggest we can assume the BL cue ball is made from the Duramith resin used in the Tournament set. I'd say this is also supported by the fact that the Blue Circle and Measle balls are made from the same resin as the sets they come with (Centennials and Super Pros respectively, both made with the Super Pro resin).


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04-15-2012, 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfleinen View Post
Removing the references to 14.1 is good in a way (obviously you want to cater to a larger crowd than us straight poolers), but IMHO you're leaving valuable information on the table as well. For example, the issue of a lighter cue ball being undesirable in 14.1 (e.g. because of reduced ability to "hold" it [it "wants" to zing around], as well as the propensity to glance off the rack and clusters at weird angles) should be mentioned somewhere.
I've added an additional quote on the cue ball types resource page for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfleinen View Post
Thank you for the continued "go forward" practice of including the link on the forums where the citation comes from -- to maintain the context in which the information was offered!
You're welcome. Your suggestion to add links to any quoted posts was good. I have done this will all new stuff I've added since you suggested it. I only wish I had thought of this on my own many years ago.

Thanks again,
Dave
  
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04-15-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsPlayingPool View Post
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...cue_ball_types
Dave, FYI - in the link under my citation labeled "Aramith CB information", an error message pops up.
Thank you for pointing this out. I've fixed the problem. It should come up now (although, you might need to Refresh or Reload the page in your browser).

Thanks again for posting the useful info,
Dave

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04-15-2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Thank you for pointing this out. I've fixed the problem. It should come up now (although, you might need to Refresh or Reload the page in your browser).

Thanks again for posting the useful info,
Dave
Works now, Dave. BTW, feel free to use my comments on the new Black Logo ball from post #62 if you see fit. As the Tournaments come into use over time at more rooms around the country I'm sure the BL ball will be entering the discussion quite a bit.


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14.1 cue ball - 04-17-2012, 09:49 AM

I can remember watching the great players using the blue circle. Jimmy Moore could send that slightly heavier ball through the pack.....and it was so pretty to watch. They didn't have a different ball for different games. They used the blue circle for nine ball, also. Once....I was watching Jimmy play in a 10 ball ring game, and he got straight in on the 8 ball and had to get to the 9 ball that was on the opposite rail ........he was maybe 4 feet from the 8 ball. He drew that ball down to the foot rail with a little spin and got perfect on the 9 to get on the 10 for the out. His fellow competitors couldn't make a ball after that..........those were the days.


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04-19-2012, 04:41 PM

aha, very detailed and nice info on the different balls, thanks.
  
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04-21-2012, 07:18 AM

Some random thoughts.

Having bought various sets over just the last few years I can report that:
Centennials come with a blue circle;
Super Pros come with a red logo;
Tournaments with a black logo;
and the TV set comes with the measles ball.

About a year ago I was told by Cigar Dave that the way to tell the difference between a real measles ball and a fake was as follows:

"The real one has a higher coefficient of restitution (CoR). I have a counterfeit one so I know. The higher the CoR, the more efficient the collision.

Do this test.

From eye-level, simultaneously drop both balls onto a smooth concrete floor. The real one will bounce ~8" higher than the counterfeit one.the way you tell the difference between a real measles ball and a fake is to bounce them simultaneously on a hard surface (i.e. concrete floor) from waist height and, the fake will bounce far less due to the resin used and a different coefficient of restitution."

I suppose that if you only practice or play at home you can choose to play with whatever cue ball you like. But out in the real world you most usually will find the red circle in play and you might as well get used to that. Besides, if you’re playing with the locals chances are they’re going to look askance at playing with anything out of the norm. This is particularly true if you plan on ever enticing any of the them into playing something other than 14.1, like say a friendly game of 1pocket. Even in the 14.1 Challenges I’ve seen at the Philly Expo, DCC, and US Open in Vegas, it’s always been the red circle.

I recently bought a set of Super Pros and a new Aramith red circle (of course there are fake versions of these out there too -- so buy from a reputable dealer who specifies it is indeed from Aramith). I was surprised how much larger it is from the red circle I’d been using. The previous was my own ball that I’d bought new just a few years ago and which received far less use than a pool hall ball. So what this tells me is that a cue ball probably loses size much faster than I ever suspected. And if you think about it in terms of your chalked tip having at least the abrasiveness of, for the sake of argument, 600 sandpaper, and the 10’s of thousands of blows it takes over the course of just one year, it makes a certain amount of sense. So now, playing with the new red circle, my general feeling is that it plays much more like a measles ball. I always felt there was a more dramatic difference, but that may have just been the difference in size.

Lou Figueroa
  
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04-21-2012, 08:10 AM

There is also an easier way to tell the difference without having to risk damaging the balls.

the imposter has 8 dots and the real measel ball has 6, also the coloring of the legit Measel is the same shade of white as the object balls.

the imposter is a brighter white.

-Steve


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04-21-2012, 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
There is also an easier way to tell the difference without having to risk damaging the balls.

the imposter has 8 dots and the real measel ball has 6, also the coloring of the legit Measel is the same shade of white as the object balls.

the imposter is a brighter white.

-Steve
hmmmm, no. Or at least not necessarily.

I have an imposter ball that has six dots. Also, the Aramith white on the higher number balls has changed, albeit slightly, over the last few years from an off-white, very slightly yellow, to an almost pure white nowadays. So, while the imposter is very slightly yellow, it is not so different from older sets of Aramiths.

The history on this ball is that when the measles ball first came out there was a guy on eBay selling "genuine" measles balls for quite a bit less than the real deal. He was offering these balls at a discount because the original manufacturer's packaging had been "damaged" and the balls he had for sale came without :-)

However, for the suspicious types, here's something else you can try: you can take a very close look at the red dots themselves. On the imposter ball - or at least the one I have -- there is an almost iridescent red ring around the dots. On the real ball there is also a ring around the dots, but it is very faint and does not have the iridescent "glow."

Udder than that, a one time bounce on a finished concrete floor, like in a basement, is probably a more definitive test and is not going to damage the balls.

Lou Figueroa

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04-21-2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Some random thoughts.

Having bought various sets over just the last few years I can report that:
Centennials come with a blue circle;
Super Pros come with a red logo;
Tournaments with a black logo;
and the TV set comes with the measles ball.
What an excellent thread this has turned out to be! Lou's info is spot-on. Notice that NONE of these most common sets come with a Red Circle. (I don't have any information about the Vigma sets, so I don't have information to share on them -- perhaps some of our friends in Germany might be able to share some insight?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
About a year ago I was told by Cigar Dave that the way to tell the difference between a real measles ball and a fake was as follows:

"The real one has a higher coefficient of restitution (CoR). I have a counterfeit one so I know. The higher the CoR, the more efficient the collision.

Do this test.

From eye-level, simultaneously drop both balls onto a smooth concrete floor. The real one will bounce ~8" higher than the counterfeit one.the way you tell the difference between a real measles ball and a fake is to bounce them simultaneously on a hard surface (i.e. concrete floor) from waist height and, the fake will bounce far less due to the resin used and a different coefficient of restitution."
I'd heard about this test, but it's nice to have documented -- in one place -- how to conduct this test and what to look for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
I suppose that if you only practice or play at home you can choose to play with whatever cue ball you like. But out in the real world you most usually will find the red circle in play and you might as well get used to that. Besides, if you’re playing with the locals chances are they’re going to look askance at playing with anything out of the norm. This is particularly true if you plan on ever enticing any of the them into playing something other than 14.1, like say a friendly game of 1pocket. Even in the 14.1 Challenges I’ve seen at the Philly Expo, DCC, and US Open in Vegas, it’s always been the red circle.
The bolded part is incorrect. That I can speak to with authority. They use the measles ball in the SBE 14.1 Challenge. You will find NO red circle balls here.

And, for the rest, it depends on what you're training for. If you're practicing for some of the major tournaments (e.g. SBE Open/Pro 10-ball, or any 14.1 tournament of any notioreity, and many others), it make sense to practice with the cue ball standardized with that tournament spec. That most often will be the Blue Circle or the Pro Cup (measles ball). 14.1 enthusiasts and practitioners will demand nothing less.

But if you're only interested in your local 9-ball tournaments, *of course* practicing with the red circle makes sense, since it's the favorite cue ball of that discipline.

Which brings up an interesting point: why would anyone override the cue ball that comes standard with ball sets, and choose a cue ball that HAS NEVER been included standard with ball sets precisely because it's so different? The next quote segues nicely...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
I recently bought a set of Super Pros and a new Aramith red circle (of course there are fake versions of these out there too -- so buy from a reputable dealer who specifies it is indeed from Aramith).
It's always struck me as interesting why anyone would want to do this, especially a 14.1 or one pocket practitioner. And this is especially interesting considering how many pool rooms do this. What happens with all those red-/black-logo'ed, blue circle, and measles balls that'd been swapped out? Are they put back on the market? Are they saved as "oh my gosh, I'm really sorry about this, but this is the only cue ball we have left" emergency replacement for red circles that'd suddenly disappeared? Mulder, you have an interesting X-file to bring to Scully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
I was surprised how much larger it is from the red circle I’d been using. The previous was my own ball that I’d bought new just a few years ago and which received far less use than a pool hall ball. So what this tells me is that a cue ball probably loses size much faster than I ever suspected. And if you think about it in terms of your chalked tip having at least the abrasiveness of, for the sake of argument, 600 sandpaper, and the 10’s of thousands of blows it takes over the course of just one year, it makes a certain amount of sense. So now, playing with the new red circle, my general feeling is that it plays much more like a measles ball. I always felt there was a more dramatic difference, but that may have just been the difference in size.

Lou Figueroa
I have a feeling that the bolded part is due to Saluc's "dammit, we're tired of all these cue ball differences over the years. That does it, we're going to use the same resin and manufacturing technique for all cue ball products moving forward" standardization. This is a standard "product assimilation" technique utilized by the whale that swallows another whale. I'd witnessed several of these acquisitions personally:
  • Digitial Equipment Corporation is swallowed up by Compaq, which is swallowed by HP
  • CNS group merges with 3 other companies to form AimNet Solutions, which is swallowed by Cognizant Technology Solutions (all three are my former employers)
  • Sun Microsystems is swallowed up by Oracle
  • Computer Associates is known as the "Borg" in information technology circles; a playful pun on their "Better Software by Design" is "Better Software through Acquisition"
In each case, each of the swallowed companies' products were hacked-down, and then standardized into the larger company's product line.

The pool industry is NO different -- it's just another take on the corporate world. Saluc standardizing the blue circle, red logo, and measles ball (save for any perceptible size difference in the measles case) would be due to this standardization. (The black logo ball is a different story, due to the different resin -- Duramith -- used in the Tournament ball sets.)

I would not be surprised if the red circle -- going forward -- turns out to be the same cue ball as the red logo, blue circle, and measles ball in future products.

It's bound to happen.

-Sean


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04-21-2012, 03:11 PM

Sean, we know they aren't quite there yet with the standardization because we know the red circle is made from a different resin. On top of that, you now have to add the Black Logo ball that comes with the Tournaments in the new Duramith resin.

I'm also waiting to see, now that Aramith has this new gen resin, if Brunswick will go to it in the Centennial balls, which of course would change the composition of the Blue Circle ball.


Two things are interesting to me. One is that while apparently the BC, RL, and Measles ball are the same, the measles does seem to play different to many of us, at least different than the BC ball that comes with the cents. I don't know, maybe it's just because of the different look with all those dots on the ball.

The other thing is that the Measles ball is significantly more expensive than the RL ball even though both are made from the same resin. The couple of places on line I found the BC ball it was priced up there with the Measles.


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04-21-2012, 07:40 PM

[QUOTE=sfleinen;3562148]

Lou said:
"Even in the 14.1 Challenges I’ve seen at the Philly Expo, DCC, and US Open in Vegas, it’s always been the red circle."

Sean said:
"The bolded part is incorrect. That I can speak to with authority. They use the measles ball in the SBE 14.1 Challenge. You will find NO red circle balls here. "



Sean, take your "speak to authority" and carefully place it... well, you know ;-)

Lou Figueroa

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04-22-2012, 05:25 AM

Very interesting post. I printed out 5 copies and dropped them on the counter at Break and Run when I went to play pool yesterday.

I like the measles ball and when I have a straight pool match I bring my own which is in new condition and never gets used for anything but straight pool.

Dave Nelson
  
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04-22-2012, 05:30 AM

Sorry, I was referring of course to post #41 by Sfleinen.

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