Frozen Balls
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Bernie33
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Frozen Balls - 05-11-2006, 07:28 PM

Since so many old and different customs & house rules exist for dealing with frozen balls, I would like to have a posting, maybe from Mr Jewett, on the official procedures. Then all the differing parties can be referred here and get on the same page. Thanks.
  
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hanisch
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05-12-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie33
Since so many old and different customs & house rules exist for dealing with frozen balls, I would like to have a posting, maybe from Mr Jewett, on the official procedures. Then all the differing parties can be referred here and get on the same page. Thanks.
for 3-cushion, balkline, and cushion caroms, the rule is this: if the shooter's cue ball is frozen to either the opponent's cue ball or the red ball, the shooter has the option to:

1) play away from the ball to which his or her cue ball is frozen, or
2) have the two frozen balls spotted.

spotting is as follows:

- the shooters cue ball is spotted on the head spot.
- if the other frozen ball is the red ball, the red ball is spotted on the foot spot.
- if the other frozen ball is the opponent's ball, the opponent's ball is spotted on the center spot.

now, if the ball which is *not* frozen interferes with spotting one of the two frozen balls, then the ball whose spot is occupied is instead spotted on the spot assigned to the non-frozen ball.

for example, if the shooter's cue ball is frozen to the red ball, and the shooter elects to have them spotted, then the shooter's ball is placed on the head spot and the red ball on the foot spot. if the opponent's ball happens to interfere with spotting the red ball, say, then the red ball is instead placed on the center spot.

i don't know if it ever happened, but i must plead ignorance on what to do for the case in which the shooter's cue ball is frozen to both the red ball and the opponent's cue ball. my guess is that they all get spotted, though it may be that the shooter is allowed to choose which of the other two balls gets spotted.

for straight rail, however, the rule is different. the shooter has no choice if his or her cue ball is frozen to either of the other two balls. the shooter is required to shoot the opening shot.

i hope this is helpful.

william

Last edited by hanisch; 05-12-2006 at 01:41 PM.
  
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Deno J. Andrews
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05-19-2006, 03:30 PM

There are lots of different customs regarding frozen balls. Each country has its own special way of handling the issue. For example, in Mexico, if the cue ball is frozen to any ball, they must be spotted and the player doesn't have the choice to shoot away from the frozen ball. In this country, it is the player's choice to shoot away or spot the balls. In tournament play it is usually the player's choice to shoot away or spot...of course, in certain parts of the world, mainly Latin America, the balls must spot no matter what.

Deno


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Bob Jewett
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05-19-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deno J. Andrews
.. ..of course, in certain parts of the world, mainly Latin America, the balls must spot no matter what.

Deno
I hope they don't try to enforce this local rule in World or CPB Tournaments. The real rule at 3-cushion is that the shooter has the option.

Another rule that is in force in some backwaters is that any kiss voids the shot. I think that under this bogus rule, you can't play on a ball frozen to the cushion because the hit is considered a double kiss even though it is not.

Local rule sets should be suppressed.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
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Deno J. Andrews
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05-19-2006, 07:10 PM

Well, "real" is sort of subjective in Latin America. I agree that in a World Championship it should be, and is, shooter's choice. But I have played in ten or twelve Pan American Sanctioned events in the last ten years and in every one of them south of the Rio-Grande, it was automatically spotted if frozen...including the Pan American Championships, which were sanctioned by the UMB.

Deno Andrews


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Frozen Balls
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Frozen Balls - 06-04-2006, 06:02 PM

Dino, In Daly's billiard book on page 4 he says, 'in the 1913 tournament the rule of separating "frozen" balls by a card'. What does that mean, have the rules changed? I think they are talking about straight rail and/or balk-line. Was that a rule or has it changed. I tried to do rail nurse practice on a pool table after reading the 8-ball Bible. It took me a month before I could run 3-4, but then I started running 10-20 and the balls would freeze. I kept hitting them making sure both balls would move and ran 200 one night. I was kind of bragging about it and was then informed that it didn't count as you have to shoot away from a frozen ball. I was putting a playing card between the frozen balls as sugested in the Daly's Billliard Book. I guess I know the answer, my run didn't count, but what is the history of this? JPA
  
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Deno J. Andrews
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06-04-2006, 08:15 PM

Too bad about the high run! That number is still impressive despite the frozen balls. I will have to re-read Daly and consider the context. That was obviously a different time and a different game. They used much slower cloth and ivory balls, and it was not uncommon for balls to freeze. Today, it is more difficult on a carom table with fast worsted cloth, though it does happen regularly.
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Bob Jewett
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06-06-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAlexis
Dino, In Daly's billiard book on page 4 he says, 'in the 1913 tournament the rule of separating "frozen" balls by a card'. What does that mean, have the rules changed? ...
The problem is that you have a nice run going on the rail and the balls freeze and you have to shoot a break shot. The "separated by a playing card" rule was probably only tried for 1913. I have never seen the rule in an official rule set. It is certainly not a rule for the last 50 (or 90) years.

The way to prevent balls freezing at straight rail is to play for more separation on each shot. As Deno mentioned, this is easier on modern cloth. It is possible to do the rail nurse with both object balls less than 3 inches from the rail, and the closer ball nearly frozen to the cushion, but that is dangerous due to the risk of freezing.

If you want to see some beyond-championship-level straight rail, get Frederic Caudron's 2-DVD set and he will show you how to take the balls around the table including how to avoid the "forbidden zone" in the corners. See http://www.i-billiard.nl/products_online_en.html for one place to get it. He also shows how to play (well) all the other carom games. You have never seen someone with the level of ball control he demonstrates on these DVDs.


Bob Jewett
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DVD's
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DVD's - 06-07-2006, 02:23 PM

Thanks Bob,
I will get the DVD's. I have very little interest in playing carom games. I felt the straight rail would help my position game in one pocket and 14.1. It did. It really helped my one pocket game. Having said that, I so enjoy watching 3-C play. I want to comment on my recent vacation in Puerto Vallarata Mexico. I went to a local billiard room that had 4 8 foot standard pool tables and 10 10 foot carom tables. I played by myself in the after noon sevral times. It was very hot and humid, no air conditioning. I was surprised when I came back in the early evening, they were running a 3-C Tournament. I was shocked at the quality of play. I have never seen so many 3-4's run in my life. I have been to Rivera Hotel at several BCA trade shows and watched the international stars and it was fasinating. These local Mexican guys seemed to play just as well. How can that be? I asked them if they were using Granito or Simonis and I couldn't get a response. I didn't speak Spanish and they didn't speak English. I think they were saying they were using a local cloth. They had beautiful furniture tables without heaters as I didn't see any wires. The tables played very fast and responsive. Does anyone know what kind of cloth and tables they were using?
  
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Deno J. Andrews
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06-07-2006, 06:45 PM

They were most likely using Granito M or A. There are many fine players in Mexico. While you probably saw a great number of 3s and 4s, keep in mind that the best players in the world have averages now of 2 per inning, which is much better than occasional 4s by a good player.
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Straight Rail Develops Cue Ball Control
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Straight Rail Develops Cue Ball Control - 06-18-2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAlexis
Dino, In Daly's billiard book on page 4 he says, 'in the 1913 tournament the rule of separating "frozen" balls by a card'. What does that mean, have the rules changed? I think they are talking about straight rail and/or balk-line. Was that a rule or has it changed. I tried to do rail nurse practice on a pool table after reading the 8-ball Bible. It took me a month before I could run 3-4, but then I started running 10-20 and the balls would freeze. I kept hitting them making sure both balls would move and ran 200 one night. I was kind of bragging about it and was then informed that it didn't count as you have to shoot away from a frozen ball. I was putting a playing card between the frozen balls as sugested in the Daly's Billliard Book. I guess I know the answer, my run didn't count, but what is the history of this? JPA
Maurice Daly was always trying to promote billiards. His playing card rule for frozen balls was an experiment to encourage amateurs to play more. So far as I know such a rule was never used in professional competition (professional carom players are adept in making the small masse which is used to recover from freeze ups).

Your run of 200 (even using a playing card to separate frozen balls) is extraordinary for an amateur. Congatulations.

One question. Has your cue ball control improved?

The whole idea of getting pool players on a billiard table is not to make billiard players out of them (although this happens accidentally quite often), but to enhance their cue ball control and expand their insight into spreading clusters etc.

I've been trying to get pool players to learn some straight rail for years with little success even though the most obvious example of carom skill blocks the way to a professional title in every big event — I speak of Efren Reyes who is a pretty fair straight rail player.

Reyes "billiard" shots are obvious to those with a little carom experience. Reyes's cue ball control and his insight into spreading clusters is largely derived from his billiard experience. Cue ball control and cluster work are Reyes's strong suits and he beats the field with these skills time and again.

Anyone who wants to seriously challenge Reyes should learn enough straight rail to run hundreds in open play fairly often.
Bibleman
  
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Straight Rail
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Straight Rail - 06-18-2006, 09:49 PM

Dear Bibleman,
Yes, it helped my position play and my safety play. I practiced the sugested shots in your 8- ball book. It took me 6 weeks before I could run 3 practicing 20 to 40 minutes a day. I ran 10 one day and started to get the feel for it. Once I got the feel of it I started to make larger and larger runs. The balls always seemed to freeze. This was on a pool table with Granito 2000 cloth and pool balls. This helped my banking as I got the feel for where all the balls will go.
I recently played in a local bar table 9-ball tournament. I ran 10 racks of 9-ball. My previous high was 3. I ran 5 racks of 8-ball on a bar table. I am 64 years old and I have ran 5 racks of 8-ball on a bar table or big table about 9 times when I was younger in my 50's. For the last 8 years I haven't been able to make a ball. I do mean can't make a ball. When I was younger I was always 1st or 2nd in the individual league standings almost every year. The last couple of years I am in the bottom 25%. I try hard, but I just can't do it.
What I am trying to say is I am playing better and It directly attributed to you book.
Thank You,
John Alexis
  
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Bibleman
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06-19-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAlexis
Dear Bibleman,
Yes, it helped my position play and my safety play. I practiced the sugested shots in your 8- ball book. It took me 6 weeks before I could run 3 practicing 20 to 40 minutes a day. I ran 10 one day and started to get the feel for it. Once I got the feel of it I started to make larger and larger runs. The balls always seemed to freeze. This was on a pool table with Granito 2000 cloth and pool balls. This helped my banking as I got the feel for where all the balls will go.
That was my experience too. When I practiced straight rail regularly, it introduced the element of precise CONTROL into my game.

One surprising result of struggling with straight rail was that my pattern play improved enormously. Being able to control the cue ball enabled completion of a plan, but suddenly I was able to "see" how to get out of intricate layouts.


Quote:
I recently played in a local bar table 9-ball tournament. I ran 10 racks of 9-ball. — For the last 8 years I haven't been able to make a ball. I do mean can't make a ball.
If you think you're going to get a spot after clearing 10 racks of 9-ball don't try that routine on me. You can still play some.


Quote:
What I am trying to say is I am playing better and It directly attributed to you book.
Thank You,
John Alexis
Thanks.

I hope that some pro takes carom play seriously. Then Efren will get a run for his money.
Bibleman
  
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