CJ, I am totally lost on this. I think I need a video to see what you are referring to.
Pulled or Pushed
- Thread starter One Pocket John
- Start date
Tony:
I agree. Unless CJ is referring to my long-straight-handled shovel analogy, where you "stab" the shovel into the mound of dirt using your shoulder and triceps.
What CJ is referring to, is I think (?) that he's stabbing the cue ball with the cue (using shoulder and triceps), instead of swinging the forearm at the elbow.
Also, I hope that CJ is just glossing over things when he says "biceps pull, and triceps push". As we all know, muscles never "push" -- they always contract (pull) against their levers. Muscles never "expand" as we saw duckie try to say in another thread.
-Sean
Could someone please explain the term
"keeping the stroke out in front of you"
Thanks
John
"keeping the stroke out in front of you"
Thanks
John
Sean, that it true, but I think CJ is referring to the anatomical action of the muscles. The biceps is a flexor muscle and draws the joint closed, while the triceps is an extensor muscle which opens up the joint.
It's pretty hard to push anything with a muscle that draws a joint closed when it contracts. Same with the legs. The quadriceps opens the the knee joint when it contracts while the biceps femoris closes the knee joint during contraction.
Anatomically, a closing joint is viewed as having a pulling action, while an opening joint is considered to be pushing. It has a lot to do with where the muscle attachments are within and around the joint.
With that being the case, when down in the shooting position the arm is closing creating a pulling action, the cue ball just happens to be in the way and is pushed to the target. The stick continues being pulled forward to the finish.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Can anyone answer or post a comment on post #123
John
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I'm not an instructor.
Well after some research into this as it pertains to Golf.
I can now understand why no one has commented. This is something that would be very difficult to put into words.
I did take the information I read and practiced it on my pool table. It does change the way my stroke is delivered.
Here is what I felt. It felt as though my grip hand was ahead of the cue. Or, that I was pocketing balls with the grip hand, not the cue.
And no, I havent been drink'in......too early. :smile:
Thanks
John
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lets take this example
you have a shopping cart thats waist height
the handle is alittle be hind you
you take the handle with an open palm
at this point you are in a semi pool position
ie your upper arm is closer to parrallel to the ground
your forearm is at 110 degrees(pretend end of back stroke)
now you move the cart foward by using your bicep and closing the joint
arent you PUSHING the cart foward????
ill state it another way
if the mass you are moving is in front of the part thats moving it
thats pushing it
if its behind the part thats moving it
its pulling it
Well what if you grip the cue, on the balance point......
This whole pulled or push is a thought exercise that there can be multiple answers for depending upon the logic you use to answer it.
I like to think of this in terms of the cue ball. What we are really doing is pushing the cue ball with the cue stick, which is after-all only an extension of our arm. So if I am pushing the cue ball, I am pushing the cue.
Just my simplistic answer to a question that doesn't have an answer.
This whole pulled or push is a thought exercise that there can be multiple answers for depending upon the logic you use to answer it.
I like to think of this in terms of the cue ball. What we are really doing is pushing the cue ball with the cue stick, which is after-all only an extension of our arm. So if I am pushing the cue ball, I am pushing the cue.
Just my simplistic answer to a question that doesn't have an answer.
Fran:
I use the release on occasion and as I've posted on my site, I don't pronate. I referred in this thread to Newton's first law and the example of doing as little as possible on a release or any other stroke to fly straight as possible. However, just because you didn't do something for three years is no proof that Ralph Greenleaf would not or could not.
I'm not pretending to be an expert in our sport. I'd say after my extensive website, magazine instruction columns, book, DVD and countless lessons, not to mention working collaboratively with other pros and teachers, I'd be somewhat of an expert on pool if I'd merely transcribed all that and not authored it. Do you disagree?
And there's not a photo or video on my site of me pocketing a single object ball but you've knocked my playing ability several times now.
I'm unsure of why all the attacks, minus any facts.
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Well what if you grip the cue, on the balance point......
This whole pulled or push is a thought exercise that there can be multiple answers for depending upon the logic you use to answer it.
I like to think of this in terms of the cue ball. What we are really doing is pushing the cue ball with the cue stick, which is after-all only an extension of our arm. So if I am pushing the cue ball, I am pushing the cue.
Just my simplistic answer to a question that doesn't have an answer.
tony first of all i agree this is alot of mental masturbation
i appologize if i offend anyone with that comment and i also appologize if im too ignorant to understand the importance
but if you had a log attached /hanging from a string and you pulled it into a gong
it hits the gong and pushes it foward as it makes its sound
you pulled the log but pushed the gong
to me they are 2 separate acts
See, this is the kind of thing that is so ridiculous. You wrote, "minus any facts." That's your tag line with others as well. I have been providing fact after fact about your continuous posting of misinformation.
Did you give Jerry Briesath credit in the article you wrote where you discussed the 'chin lock'? I know that Jerry created that concept and term, yet your article on chin lock never mentions Jerry. If I were someone who knows nothing about pool or Jerry Briesath, I'd be inclined to think that you created the concept.
Is that another 'non fact' that I just posted?
There are people who sincerely try to do the right thing and then there are those who are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Now, I've done enough exposing you for what you really are for now. I'm going to get back to helping people with their game. I'm going to leave most of your misinformation alone now, because I've made my point about you. But if you really cross the line again, I'll be there.
I am sincere. I swear before Jesus Christ as God that I coined the chin lock term independently on an article on my site and was absolutely unaware of Jerry's views on this before your post. I further don't recommend this technique for all my students and have said so elsewhere. If Jerry teaches it, I hope it's not a one-size-fits-all item.
Yes, I've pressed pj and others for facts. PJ retorted to one of my first posts, citing over 30 things in "error" by taking a fragment of a sentence of mine and putting next to it, "wrong". I responded in line to each and all of them and he still is yet to provide any facts. Saying "you're wrong" or "you plagiarize from other teachers" is an opinion, not a fact.
I expect better from you than from pj and if you want to focus now to help people with their game as you wrote, take an interest in my gigantic readership. You are graciously invited to post articles on my site or even to debate me at my site on a topic of your choosing. Whatever works.
I don't know everything but am willing to learn from everyone.
Thank you.
I think this is just semantics.
The point is, when I try different stokes types, they feel different to me. The pendulum stroke feels like I'm pulling the cue through the contact zone while the piston stroke feels like it starts out with a pull but turns into a push as I follow through. It is irrelevant to me what a high-speed camera might detect at the contact point, it feels more like a shuffleboard push and a pure pendulum feels more like bowling. Cameras don't detect what is going on with the muscles themselves.
This might all have to do with the point where the triceps first engage. Muscular actions are not "all or nothing thing" things. Try contracting your biceps as if to punch yourself in the head. If the triceps wasn't involved as well, your fist would have no choice but to slam into your face. Thankfully, your triceps stops the action from going to completion. Both muscles are unconsciously timed to get the exact effect we desire. Poke, extended follow through and everything in between the two, as well as fine control over speed are all made possible by both muscles working together.
I think that in a piston stroke, your triceps engages to help your control the follow through. To try this idea out, I went down to the table and tried power strokes of both types while my wife grasped my upper arm. During the pendulum stroke she said she felt very little triceps action, but when I used a piston stroke the triceps felt like it got harder, even though the stroke itself carried my upper arm slightly forward from where her contact point on the back of my arm was.
Proof? No, just an interesting observation. Interesting thread, as well. I may never have thought about this before. Funny how the whole discussion went off in a different direction than the OP meant, yet provided some deeper thinking into what really is going on with the stroke, at least for me it did.
As far as the CB being pushed by the cue? Doesn't happen. The cue collides with the CB and delivers a brief impulse, whereby much of the momentum of the cue is transferred. You may push the cue to deliver that impulse, but if you want to push the CB itself you must keeps contact with it until the end. Last I checked, that was a foul.
Jerry Briesath's "chin lock" terminology goes way back
Jerry Briesath's "chin lock" terminology can be seen explained in this video snippet from one of Jerry's instructional tapes:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YpbNlnS9GFk
Although this video was posted in mid-2011, one can easily see the age of the original video content via its graininess and audio (looks and sounds like it was dubbed from a VHS tape, although it had to be a good quality tape on a VHS player with clean heads, because I don't see any telltale tracking problems).
Matt Sherman's usage of this terminology is found here:
http://billiards.about.com/od/theclassicstroke/a/BilliardsLesson.htm
Notice Matt's usage is exactly the same as Jerry's, but there's no attribution to Jerry Briesath -- anywhere in the article -- even though both the video and its publishing date on YouTube predate Matt's article. This is very strange, because Matt himself is a self-admitted "non-chinner" (related to placement of the chin on the cue, not to the concept of "chin lock") and even pokes fun at chinning the cue with "needing a chiropractor afterwards" analogies.
Just saying,
-Sean
Jerry Briesath's "chin lock" terminology can be seen explained in this video snippet from one of Jerry's instructional tapes:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YpbNlnS9GFk
Although this video was posted in mid-2011, one can easily see the age of the original video content via its graininess and audio (looks and sounds like it was dubbed from a VHS tape, although it had to be a good quality tape on a VHS player with clean heads, because I don't see any telltale tracking problems).
Matt Sherman's usage of this terminology is found here:
http://billiards.about.com/od/theclassicstroke/a/BilliardsLesson.htm
Notice Matt's usage is exactly the same as Jerry's, but there's no attribution to Jerry Briesath -- anywhere in the article -- even though both the video and its publishing date on YouTube predate Matt's article. This is very strange, because Matt himself is a self-admitted "non-chinner" (related to placement of the chin on the cue, not to the concept of "chin lock") and even pokes fun at chinning the cue with "needing a chiropractor afterwards" analogies.
Just saying,
-Sean
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Sean...The 'chin lock' concept originated with Jerry long before Matt even began to think about it. It was part of the BCA-produced VHS video (now dvd) titled, "How to Play Pool Right", and was available in the mid-80's. Jerry was teaching it long before that.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Yes, semantics.....
This is a definition of push (verb) from the Merriam-Webster.com site
"to press against with force in order to drive or impel"
I don't see anything about a push having a time or distance duration requirement.
I think a push can happen in a thousandth of a second. A push that happens over a longer time period, or distance would be a foul as you stated.
One thing I know is that the cueball is not being pulled.
This is a definition of push (verb) from the Merriam-Webster.com site
"to press against with force in order to drive or impel"
I don't see anything about a push having a time or distance duration requirement.
I think a push can happen in a thousandth of a second. A push that happens over a longer time period, or distance would be a foul as you stated.
One thing I know is that the cueball is not being pulled.
Thanks Scott! I revised my post since the time you quoted it (see above) -- I think my revision / your reply crossed the wires and waved "hello" at each other as they were going by.
But yes, I suspected the original source video is/was pretty old, just based on the graininess and the audio (specifically the timbre -- it sounds like old condenser microphones were used to record the original audio).
-Sean