[LWW]

Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ

Exactly...I was hoping he would "step" in it, but figured he would not answer... And I can't stand the lame way they present their "facts" to make their case... I mean, they can't even convince an agnostic person like me, what chance did they really have

I could make their argument for thm much better.

The cold hard reality is that the science shows that in the beginning we had the singularity.

This means that an infinite amount of matter and an ininite amount of space was compressed into an infinitely small package occupying zero space ... IOW, nothing. That is an impossibility under the laws of this universe.

Keeping things compressed in this manner would by definition require energy beyond infinity ... which is also impossible.

Now ... we reach the limits of science as it is also impossible to know the history of something before it existed, so whaever lies on the other side of the singularity is not only unknown, but unknowable as far as science is concerned.

[LWW]

Originally Posted by JLW

There is ample historical documentation regarding St. Nicholas, so I'm willing to accept that he was a real person. He had a reputation for being a kind and giving person, so I will accept that too. Now, is everything that we've been taught about him absolutely true? I don't know, and I don't particularly care. On the other hand, there is no evidence to support the existence of God. Or Santa for that matter. So what's your point?

By your own rules ... how can you accept his existence, other than on faith?

Also ... the historical documentation of a Creator dwarfs the documntation of Saint Nick.

[JLW]

Originally Posted by LWW

By your own rules ... how can you accept his existence, other than on faith?

Because there are independent accounts and records detailing his life written by different people that are historically verifiable. You know, evidence; the thing you don't have with God and Jesus. Have I studied it in depth? No, because it's not important to me whether he actually lived or not. From what I have seen, I'm satisfied that he did.

[ChicagoRJ]

Originally Posted by LWW

By your own rules ... how can you accept his existence, other than on faith?

Also ... the historical documentation of a Creator dwarfs the documntation of Saint Nick.

Yep... he stepped in it afterall !! I'll keep setting them up, and you "knock" them down

What is this world coming to when a deist and an agnostic work together to find truth

[jmccarthy]

Originally Posted by LWW

Why do you do this?

Here ---> http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/ladyhope.html any interested party can find the full quote, in context, where Darwin explained how he came to not believe in the Christian faith. At no point did he claim to be n atheist.

That being said, three years before his death he did say "In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God."

http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/what-...elieve-article

He said quite clearly that he did not believe in a personal god. He goes on to explain why he didn't believe in a design. I invite others to read what he says: http://www.skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id17.html

Although, I still don't get your point, we have learned a lot since Darwin which solidify our understanding of the universe, whether he is agnostic or atheist doesn't give you any new evidence for the existence of a creator.

Why can you not accept that you need to believe in a greater power and that you simply have faith that there is one? That's fine with me.

[BeiberLvr]

Originally Posted by LWW

Now ... we reach the limits of science as it is also impossible to know the history of something before it existed, so whaever lies on the other side of the singularity is not only unknown, but unknowable as far as science is concerned.

For now. All that can be learned from the Bible and any other religious texts has already been learned. However, unlike the Bible, science is always moving forward.

[LWW]

Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ

Yep... he stepped in it afterall !! I'll keep setting them up, and you "knock" them down

What is this world coming to when a deist and an agnostic work together to find truth

It's coming to be a better place.

To finish my thoughts from a few minutes ago ... anything prior to, and it's poor ording bing that there can be nothing in this universe before time, the BBT is unknowable.

So, what are we left with?

On the side of a Creator we have that creation happened.

We have a universe where nothing becomes "real" until it is observed by consciousness.

And on Earth we have a single species ... out of billions ... that has developec anything more technoligally advanced piling sticks together to make a nest, and that one species has sent a vehicle beyond this solar system as well as finidng the proof of the creation event itself.

On the side in opposition to a Creator we have the hypothesis that that absolutely everything came into being from absolutely nothing, from absolutely nowhere, for absolutely no reason and before the beginning of time by absolute chance ... even though nothing random existed.

I don't have all the answers, and never will.

Yet we have those who believe they have th answers ... but don't know what they are.

In the end ... maybe the universe rally was created from a burrito art by the Inca god Quetzlcoatl.

Maybe not ... but that makes far more sense thn the athit point of view.

[LWW]

Originally Posted by BeiberLvr

For now. All that can be learned from the Bible and any other religious texts has already been learned. However, unlike the Bible, science is always moving forward.

Really?

What big has been discovered in physics since Einstein?

[BeiberLvr]

Originally Posted by LWW

Really?

What big has been discovered in physics since Einstein?

I honestly don't know, but does it have to be big to be meaningful. The smallest discoveries in the field of science can lead to big things.

I'd estimate that more as been learned from science in the past 10 years than the bible in the past 100.

[LWW]

Originally Posted by BeiberLvr

I honestly don't know, but does it have to be big to be meaningful. The smallest discoveries in the field of science can lead to big things.

I'd estimate that more as been learned from science in the past 10 years than the bible in the past 100.

OK ... what small has been learned in phsics since Eistein?

Answer ... little to nothing.

Lots of Eistein's ... and his peers ... predictions have ben verified, and that's about it.

[BeiberLvr]

Originally Posted by LWW

OK ... what small has been learned in phsics since Eistein?

Answer ... little to nothing.

Lots of Eistein's ... and his peers ... predictions have ben verified, and that's about it.

What has been learned from the bible?

[jmccarthy]

Originally Posted by LWW

Really?

What big has been discovered in physics since Einstein?

Wow, where to start:

Superconductors
Quarks
Pulsars
Electron spectroscopy
Neutrinos
Accelerating universe expansion
Quasars
Cosmic microwave radiation

[Secaucus Fats]

Originally Posted by LWW

OK ... what small has been learned in phsics since Eistein?

Answer ... little to nothing.

Lots of Eistein's ... and his peers ... predictions have ben verified, and that's about it.

[LWW]

Originally Posted by BeiberLvr

What has been learned from the bible?

What relevance does this have?

[LWW]

Originally Posted by jmccarthy

Wow, where to start:

Superconductors Predicted by Einstein. http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0612159

Quarks It has been known for quite some time that the atom is made up of smaller particles which are made of smaller particles, so all that Murray Gell-Mann did was flesh out the earlier work of others.

Pulsars Astronomical discovery, wrong science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Bell_Burnell

Electron spectroscopy A tool used to verify the works of Heinrich Hertz, Einstein and others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect

Neutrinos Wolfgang Pauli, nominated for the Nobel Prize ... by Einstein ... for his work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect


Accelerating universe expansion A refinement of Hubble's law, made possible by more precise equipment, and actually a refinement of te work of tat pesy catholic priest LeMaitre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble's_law

Quasars Astronomy again.

Cosmic microwave radiation First predicted in 1896 by Charles Edward Guillaume. The existence was discovered ... by accident ... by Wilson and Penzias, using radio invented by Marconi to verify the work of LeMaitre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_...ound_radiation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

Facts, they are such stubborn things.