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12-06-2012, 11:53 AM

Thank you for the replies. It does not change anything in our league....but lets us draw a fair conclusion. All rules do effect each player the same...so the playing field is level regardless if we like the rule or not.


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BasementDweller
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12-06-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Thanks for the link, Neil. As usual, one look at Dr. Dave's excellent material is worth more than any number of opinions/guesses.

The video shows one thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread: in determing the hit by how the cue ball moves afterward, it matters how far apart the object balls are.

- If the OBs are just far enough apart to form a 90-degree angle with the cue ball when it's touching both of them (0.9 inch apart), then the cue ball won't clearly go in one direction or the other and you can't tell which was struck first - call goes to the shooter.

- If the OBs are less than 0.9 inch apart (forming less than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes away from the one struck first.

- If the OBs are more than 0.9 inch apart (forming more than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes toward the one struck first.

You can also tell in many cases by watching how far/fast the OBs go. The one that goes farther/faster was struck first.

Thanks again, Dave and Bob!

pj
chgo
This sounds good to me.

I guess the one exception would be the ultra thin hit on the wrong ball prior to hitting the targeted ball. I'm talking about a hit so thin it would barely even move the object ball. I suspect this could happen from time to time but it would be really difficult to see.

One other thing that I think is important is I use to think it was sort of taking the high road to avoid these types of shots. However, I now realize that I was inadvertently handicapping myself. I've noticed that great players do not fear these close hits. They understand them and they shoot them.

What I don't do is hurry up and fire them in before someone can come over and watch the hit. I acknowledge that it's going to be a close hit and I make sure that someone knowledgeable is called over to watch it.

I think if you always avoid these types of shots you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.
  
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12-06-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementDweller View Post
I guess the one exception would be the ultra thin hit on the wrong ball prior to hitting the targeted ball. I'm talking about a hit so thin it would barely even move the object ball. I suspect this could happen from time to time but it would be really difficult to see.
Yes, that would be a second case where it's too close to call (and therefore goes to the shooter). Good catch.

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12-06-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Reid View Post
There is no such thing as a Split Hit. Watch the cueball..if the cueball goes to the right, after the shot, that means that it hit the ball on the left first. If it goes to the left after the shot, it hit the ball on the right first.
A split hit is possible, but extremely unlikely. I agree with you that one simple needs to observe how the CB and/or OBs move. If a foul is not clear (via the action of the balls), no foul can be called. Bob Jewett and I describe and demonstrate everything to look for in the following videos:
NV B.53 - How to determine which ball was hit first by watching the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
NV B.54 - How to determine which ball was hit first by watching the object balls, with Bob Jewett
NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz - part 5: determining which ball is hit first
The following instructional article also covers this subject:
"Rules - Part IV: Which ball did you hit first?" (BD, November, 2009)
At the end of the NV B.53 video, we may have gotten a split hit, but it is impossible to tell (even with super-slow motion video).

Regards,
Dave
  
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12-06-2012, 03:09 PM

A great test of "split hits" is something Jerry Briesath showed me 30+ years ago...freeze three balls together, with the odd ball towards the middle of the side pocket. Place the CB directly opposite the three frozen balls. Try to pocket the single OB frozen to the frozen pair, trying to get a split hit. You MIGHT make it once in a 100 tries. Move the CB right or left of the balls a few inches and you can pocket the OB every time. This is a proposition shot from decades ago.

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12-07-2012, 08:59 AM

Not only does the benefit go to the shooter in close-call situations... I feel that unless a shot is UNQUESTIONABLY bad, there's no foul.

Not sure if the rest of the world agrees with me. Basically if someone tries to say "I'm pretty sure that was a bad hit" or "I'm almost positive" or "I'm 90% sure"... I tell them that means it's a good hit, because if there's even a little doubt, it goes to the shooter.

I think this saves on a lot of arguments. You must be POSITIVE there's a foul in order to call one. Does anyone else play this way?
  
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12-07-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeDo View Post
Not only does the benefit go to the shooter in close-call situations... I feel that unless a shot is UNQUESTIONABLY bad, there's no foul.

Not sure if the rest of the world agrees with me. Basically if someone tries to say "I'm pretty sure that was a bad hit" or "I'm almost positive" or "I'm 90% sure"... I tell them that means it's a good hit, because if there's even a little doubt, it goes to the shooter.

I think this saves on a lot of arguments. You must be POSITIVE there's a foul in order to call one. Does anyone else play this way?
Most money players will play this way...benefit of the doubt goes to the
shooter. Nobody wants to match up with a pool room lawyer.
Anything close should have a third party to call it....and never argue with
the call...it is bad form.

I've only knowingly seen ONE split hit in my life...at least as as close as
it is humanly possible to call.


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12-07-2012, 10:15 AM

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Originally Posted by nobcitypool View Post
I remember reading a Bob Jewitt article on this recently, it was on www. sfbilliards.com. Without going into all the technical background (proven with high speed video cameras), Bob established there is a near impossible likelihood of a perfect split hit. According to the article, you determine which ball gets hit first by the resultant carom path of the CB. Say the ball to be hit first in on the right, hitting the OB on the left would be a bad hit. If the CB caroms to left and back, it means the ball on the right was hit first. Vice versa for a bad hit. In the unlikely event the shooter is able to make a perfect split hit, the CB would come straight back down the path it is shot from.
Excellent info...definitely going to look up that article this evening when I have a bit more time.
  
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12-07-2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeDo View Post
You must be POSITIVE there's a foul in order to call one. Does anyone else play this way?
Everyone that I've played with more than once. Sometimes I think I probably fouled and will call it on myself, and I expect that sometimes from my opponents too.

pj
chgo

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12-07-2012, 11:53 AM

While I agree that using the reaction of the cue ball as an accurate indicator of which ball was hit first... every time I have ever tried to explain that to someone after I judged a shot I have gotten a glassy-eyed 'Huh?' followed closely by pointed look saying 'Whatever nerd'
  
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12-07-2012, 12:12 PM

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Originally Posted by JasBy View Post
While I agree that using the reaction of the cue ball as an accurate indicator of which ball was hit first... every time I have ever tried to explain that to someone after I judged a shot I have gotten a glassy-eyed 'Huh?' followed closely by pointed look saying 'Whatever nerd'
Many don't understand. I had to deal with one last week. We were playing call shot 8 ball. My opponent asked if he could use my ball. I said yes thinking he was asking about a carom. Then he called his shot & I said, 'wait a minute, you can't hit my ball first.' He said 'I'm not, I'm going to split them'. I said you still have to hit your bal first'. I explained what the resulting CB path would indicate. He missed the shot as it was nearly impossible without hitting my ball first.

However, explaining before hand, killed any possible disagreement. I suggest that that be done whenever possible, which is not always easy to do as some shoot too quickly, I think on purpose when those situations exsist.
  
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12-07-2012, 02:44 PM

I actually don't trust "Results-oriented" foul arguments, and prefer a simple "did you see the foul happen or not"... sometimes, you can get similar results with both a good and bad hit.

For example, in this example, I'm kicking off the head rail. The one moves along the kitchen line. The shooter says "good hit. I had to hit the one first, I thinly cut it and that's why it moved sideways along the kitchen line." Another guy says "no, the one moved because you hit the 5 first then caromed into the side of the 1. That's why the 1 moved sideways."

Some railbird pipes up "yeah but the cue ball went towards the 9. It must have hit the 5 last if it ended up travelling in that direction." ...another one says "yeah but maybe it hit the 5 and was heading more towards the side pocket, then barely grazed the 1 after and that send it more towards the 9."

Then you get into an argument about how far the 1 would have travelled on a thin cut vs. a glancing carom, and it's a huge mess.

So I just stick to... "did you 100% see me foul? No? OK sit back down."


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12-09-2012, 02:34 AM

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Originally Posted by CreeDo View Post
I actually don't trust "Results-oriented" foul arguments, and prefer a simple "did you see the foul happen or not"... sometimes, you often can get similar results with both a good and bad hit.

For example, in this example, I'm kicking off the head rail. The one moves along the kitchen line. ...
Yes, that's a tricky situation. My feeling is that if the shooter fails to call someone over to watch, it is marginally unsportsmanlike conduct. I've had an opponent who in a similar situation shot hard and fast to make it impossible to see from order of contact whether it was a good hit. The shot was obviously a foul from the result. Fortunately the room owner was watching and understood what the guy was pulling.


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