Low ball offers on the for sale thread

Subjective .. It comes down to what you personally think something's worth.

bobforest said:

This could be interesting for some of the traders on the 'for sale' threads who whinge about low-ball offers... and for people buying on ebay... (from Investopedia)

"Definition of 'Winner's Curse'

A tendency for the winning bid in an auction to exceed the intrinsic value of the item purchased. Because of incomplete information, emotions or any other number of factors regarding the item being auctioned, bidders can have a difficult time determining the item's intrinsic value. As a result, the largest overestimation of an item's value ends up winning the auction.

Originally, the term was coined as a result of companies bidding for offshore oil drilling rights in the Gulf of Mexico. In the investing world, the term often applies to initial public offerings.

Investopedia Says

Investopedia explains 'Winner's Curse'
For example, say Jim's Oil, Joe's Exploration and Frank's Drilling are all courting drilling rights for a specific area. Let's suppose that, after accounting for all drilling-related costs and future potential revenues, the drilling rights have an intrinsic value of $4 million. Now let's suppose that Jim's Oil bids $2 million for the rights, Joe's Exploration $5 million and Frank's Drilling $7 million. While Frank's won the auction, it ended up overpaying by $3 million. Even if Joe's Exploration is 100% sure that this price is too high, it can do nothing about it, as the highest bid always wins the auction, no matter how overpriced the bid may be.

As intrinsic value is subjective, situations aren't so clear-cut in real life. Theoretically, if perfect information was available to everyone and all participants were completely rational in their decisions and skilled at valuation, no over-payments would occur. However, in the same way that bubbles in the stock or real estate markets are created, people tend to be irrational and push prices beyond the true values of the assets involved."

so.... what do you think? do people pay too much on ebay/auctions/this forum?

Bob

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I think it's always a gray line. Henry Ford said if your goods are not selling then your price has not met consumer's demand. He said when the prices reach a point where everyone agrees on the value then your demand will be constant. He said selling goods at the proper price is easy, keep lowering the price until it sells.

Anytime demand and price are not balanced then salesmanship must be used to influence demand. And this is where perceived value comes in. If the perceived value, due to emotional pitches or emotional desires is high then the goods can be sold at a price that is higher than actual demand warrants.

Consumers do not act rationally however and compare every possible metric to arrive at a value. Research shows that people claim to act rationally and comparatively when making their buying decisions but in fact the ACT emotionally and impulsively and are easily swayed by alluring marketing.

Thus the company that puts out their goods at a "fair" price and lists all the comparative advantages of their product is actually at a disadvantage agains the company which makes their product more attractive and "sexy" through good advertising and other signals. In short companies far more often get the prices they ask for rather than what the product is actually worth.

So yes, in general people over pay for a lot of things in life. As for the forum though, you should remember that most of the transactions are between individuals who also at some point bought the cues that they are selling and are trying to recoup as much of that as they can. The value in their mind is always going to be closer to the price they paid regardless of what the actual street value of their cues are.

Sometimes though lowball offers are borderline offensive. As a maker I think that people should be a little more considerate and ask themselves if they would do their own job for a fraction of what they are earning now? If you're getting $20 an hour now would you be mad if your boss came in and offered you $5? If so then consider how such a low offer comes across to others.

It all boils down to economy and what people are willing to pay. Lots of high end cues have a hard time being sold now due to the economy. A cue might be worth 5 thousand to me, but I can't afford that. The seller may want that 5 thousand, I may offer 3 because its what I can do. I'd bet 6 out of 10 times the seller actually considers it.. Some see it as a disgrace, but its just how the world works.

John has a valid point in saying if my boss came to offer me 5$ an hour, I'd be pretty angry. But, if my cost of living was also cut 80% I wouldn't be bothered.

Economy is a key factor whether the buyer pays more than what its worth, or well below. Someone located in north dakota is more apt to pay more than me due to the positive economic growth of that state. Were as, me being in Pennsylvania and new York does not have the same growth, so I will pay less.

Lots more factors.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

As a poster mentioned in the other thread, a cue, or an item is only worth as much as a person is willing to pay for it. That may be the luck of the draw also and timing was off in listing it. some other time, you may be able to get more for it.

From the other poster, the one that got the PFO letter back, I got the distinct impression that he cruises the Sale section and low balls people that he feels that are in a way that they need the money. So, he feels justified in sending low ball offers.
Its like Garage Sale cruising I guess.

Stating that you are, Motivated to sell can be interpreted a couple of different ways.

I have seen, more than once, someone that was in a bad way, just laid off, etc and needs to make the mortgage payment and selling off a few cues. Not that he wants to but its a necessary evil that has to be done. I believe that their biggest mistake is telling people their story in their sale thread. That just attracts the cockroaches.

There are certain cues that will fetch the asking price or meet the sellers expectations if they state they are taking offers. Searing, Gina, Barry Z for three.

I have a 93 Schon that I purchased from Eye Doc, that unfortunately passed a couple of years ago. I am refinishing it at the moment. I paid $500 for it and will be asking the same for it. I might take an offer if its close or better, entertain a trade of some sort, either up or down.

So, maybe the cue market can't handle a $500 Schon at the moment. If thats the case, thats exactly where it will go if I can't work something out, back in the Case.

But, if someone send me an unsolicited low ball of $200, I most likely won't send you back a FO, I probably won't waste my time sending you a PM either.

I believe the one seller stated that the cue was new, retailed at $476 and would take a reasonable offer.

Well, if the person that offered him $200 felt that was reasonable, thats his problem if he got told to Eff Off.

There is a huge difference between a reasonable offer and insulting a person.

Gotta think man, a person that has financial problems is stressed enuff possibly at the moment. You insult that person and then get all butt hurt to the point of feeling it necessary to start a whine thread about it because they tell you Eff Off.

Yeah, its not a good business practice, but its also not nice to try and take advantage of peoples hard ships either. I would rather throw the guy closer to what he wants and feel better that I maybe helped him out of a tight spot than feel good about being able to screw a person over.

Thats just me tho. maybe a reason why I'm still working on my first million.

PS - The person that sends out ridiculous low ball offers is also the type of person that would get all bent out of shape if someone did that to them.
Funny how that works eh. I will be watching out if they ever decide to sell something in the future.

Blue Hog ridr said:

Well, if the person that offered him $200 felt that was reasonable, thats his problem if he got told to Eff Off.

There is a huge difference between a reasonable offer and insulting a person.

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I don't understand the reasoning of any offer being an insult. Hundreds of people looked at the thread and didn't even think enough of it to make an offer. So someone makes a "first bid." There's a 50% chance that the person is willing to go higher, but just testing the water. But if you're rude to him, he's gone. I don't care how much I want something; I won't deal with people who are rude.

In my business people make crazy, low-ball offers all the time. Sometimes we're able to make a deal and other times not. Over time many of them have become good customers.

In answer to the OP's question: I always sell personal stuff on ebay. Auctions bring much higher prices than just listing a "for sale at $xx."

bdorman said:

I don't understand the reasoning of any offer being an insult. Hundreds of people looked at the thread and didn't even think enough of it to make an offer. So someone makes a "first bid." There's a 50% chance that the person is willing to go higher, but just testing the water. But if you're rude to him, he's gone. I don't care how much I want something; I won't deal with people who are rude.

In my business people make crazy, low-ball offers all the time. Sometimes we're able to make a deal and other times not. Over time many of them have become good customers.

In answer to the OP's question: I always sell personal stuff on ebay. Auctions bring much higher prices than just listing a "for sale at $xx."

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I can see that reasoning but the fact is that some offers are unreasonably low. You might think that there is no such thing but let's do a thought experiment for a moment.

You have a cue for sale that you want $500 for. Street value on the cue is around $400ish.

I send you a pm and offer $150.

You counter with $450

I counter with $160

You counter with $450

I counter with $175 and a hard luck story.

You counter with $425 and a harder luck story.

I counter with $200.

You say no.

I see the cue isn't selling at $500 so I send you a pm asking if you want my $200 now.

You tell me to get lost.

At some point I feel that really lowball unreasonable offers are just rude. I can't remember that I have ever had anyone who lowballed me become anything more than a headache. Because in my experience, and not speaking about anyone in particular, the people who lowball also expect and even demand the same level of service that someone who pays the asking price would get. Never mind that they took away all the profit and as far as that goes all the fun out of the sale. So it doubly infuriating to deal with complaints from people you give in to and sell your stuff for a really low price.

Don't get me wrong, it's the customer's job to pay the least they can for whatever they want. But some folks don't realize that when they seek to pay so little that the seller is either taking a huge loss or has very slim profit that it does nothing to make that person willing or able to provide extra service on top of it.

Would any of us walk into a car dealership and offer 20% of the sticker price for a car?

Imagine how that goes, you walk in and the sticker price is 20k and you offer 5. Salesman says no of course. So you walk over to another car and do the same thing.

None of us would do that, and I mean NO ONE who has friends and operates normally would do that. We all recognize certain boundaries of what's appropriate in certain situations. But when it comes to online transactions that are person to person people tend to be a little less aware of how their requests come off.

And that leads into another pet peeve. Sob Stories when trying to buy something. I have heard so many of them over the years. My internal thought is if life is so hard for you at the moment why are you trying to buy more pool stuff? I have actually said to a person that I would rather wait until their financial situation gets better than to take their $250 for my $600 case. Some of you may think that telling me all about your situation is an incentive to give in to the discount but honestly it's more offensive to me to use that story to get discounts. (exceptions are of course charitable causes, IF you can make me cry for someone else then I will usually give in).

Honestly if you can't afford something then don't buy it. I don't have a new TV because I have not wanted to spend the $400+ to get one. I have felt that I need that money for other uses and buying a TV is a frivolous expense. So is giving up $300 on a case we busted our asses on. I need that $300 and it upsets me that you tell me a hard luck story to play on my emotions for a discount. Just ask for the discount without the hard luck story and it would be better. It's not that I am not sympathetic to your circumstances but if I don't give in I feel like crap and if I do give in and lose that extra money that I need to pay my employees.

And once in a while I shoot back with my laundry list of expenses in the vain hope that the other guy will take pity and willingly pay more. I don't like it when I do it either because A. it's none of their business what my expenses are and B. we shouldn't be having this conversation about who has it worse.

So lowballers here is what I propose.

Go ahead and make your offers but be prepared for anything from no to hell no. You're taking a shot from 2000 yards so while you might get lucky and hit the target you will probably miss by a wide margin and just piss the target off. Try to understand it from the seller's perspective.

Sellers, face life - there are only a few things that consistently fetch the high asking price out of the gate and even then the price can't be crazy high. So be prepared for lowballers but also consider rewarding your good customers with extras and discounts for being loyal to you. Of course this doesn't help if you have one cue to sell. Anyway, it is what is and like the lowballers sometimes say, hope you don't take offense.

Which brings up another point why would anyone say that if they didn't already know their low offer was going to be offensive?

I think low ball offers are an acceptable way of negotiating. Both sellers and buyers should keep emotion out of business dealings.

I never get upset if I get a low ball offer on something. I either counter offer or just say "no thanks" and walk away. No hard feelings

My wife {who had never been around pool players or gamblers before she met me} stated it as well as anyone I ever heard.
She did not say it with malice, or to insult anyone , just as a passing observation.
After hanging around the poolrooms with me for a couple of months when we first met.
She said "I don't think any of these guys would give you 8 dollars for a 10 dollar bill."
I told her she caught on a lot faster than anyone I ever met before and married the little smartie pants.

bobforest said:

JB

respect you a lot - and own one of your cases - so i'm not having a pop

but i think you're straying away from the meaning of my post. I'm not talking about something new. I totally agree that if you have produced something with your own blood, sweat and tears then you have every right to be offended at low-ballers.

But here i'm talking about second-hand goods. I don't think that either of the following 2 situations is any more/less offensive than the other

a. someone trying to sell a used cue/case for $500 because they need the money out of financial hardship.
b. a seller offering $200 because it's all they've got and they might get lucky

i don't really see the difference. as stated by another poster, the value of used goods is totally subjective. Personally, I would walk into a (used or new) car dealership and ask for hefty discounts because i know it's a buyer's market at the moment. if the answer was 'no', i would accept it - without offense - and consider my options.

anyway, interesting debate.

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I get it. But I don't agree 100% that second hand prices are totally subjective. I think it depends on the items and the supply/demand for such.

I think that when someone says they are selling because of a hardship then they set themselves up for lowball offers. One thing we know about human nature is that humans will shred weakness.

I do understand the lowball "this is all I can afford" pitch.

But,

I grew up hustling in the flea markets, and by that I mean since I was ten years old, up at 4am unloading the car at 5am and spending the day selling and buying. I know every move there is. One of the best moves that works on amateur sellers is to have about $15 in one of your pockets and when you see something you want you reach in that pocket and dig it out and say, that's all I have. I am proud to say I never used the "I am a kid" approach. I hate that with a passion.

So I get it. I really do. Just that even at the flea market there was a little sense of honor where you don't offer a guy who is asking for $50 on an item worth 30-70 if he will take $10 for it. But $15 now that was fair game.

Hmm..ironically enough, I have walked into a car dealership and asked half of the sticker price. Did I do a little negotiating back and forth? You bet. But did I get my 25K truck for 16K instead? You bet.

Alot of this debate is how you percieve the topic. Same goes for the buying/selling of goods. Someone might see a "low ball offer" as ridiculous and not worth their time, which is completely fine. Everyone retains that right to feel how they want to feel. But, when I take the time out to offer someone $275 for a cue they are asking $550 for, that we both know is not worth $550, don't react with a jab. 9 times out of 10 If I make a lower offer, and get a negative response, the next cue they have, that I can afford, that I wan't, I wont even attempt to buy because of the bad experience. That doesn't mean I'm making offers on here everyday for fractions of asking prices, because I'm not. Generally, I don't even attempt to buy if I can't afford. But I may see that cue every couple of weeks I will throw my money at, or atleast the money I have available. Which may be a bit less than the asking price...On the same note, I haven't had a bad experience yet.

I would much rather someone ask me, "Whats the best deal you can give me?" Then as a seller, I can think about it and shoot a number. Than if someone wants to try and squeeze another 25 or 50, ok I get it. Of course I normally am not negotiating Schons or Pechauers. I think the used low end market may act a little differently.

As you mention a bad offer / response resonates for a long time. I write down those who have low balled me to make sure that if I get an e-mail from them for lets say a cue ID, I might not respond or I might have amnesia. So for both sides low balling leaves battle scars.

JV

aff said:

Hmm..ironically enough, I have walked into a car dealership and asked half of the sticker price. Did I do a little negotiating back and forth? You bet. But did I get my 25K truck for 16K instead? You bet.

Alot of this debate is how you percieve the topic. Same goes for the buying/selling of goods. Someone might see a "low ball offer" as ridiculous and not worth their time, which is completely fine. Everyone retains that right to feel how they want to feel. But, when I take the time out to offer someone $275 for a cue they are asking $550 for, that we both know is not worth $550, don't react with a jab. 9 times out of 10 If I make a lower offer, and get a negative response, the next cue they have, that I can afford, that I wan't, I wont even attempt to buy because of the bad experience. That doesn't mean I'm making offers on here everyday for fractions of asking prices, because I'm not. Generally, I don't even attempt to buy if I can't afford. But I may see that cue every couple of weeks I will throw my money at, or atleast the money I have available. Which may be a bit less than the asking price...On the same note, I haven't had a bad experience yet.

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classiccues said:

I would much rather someone ask me, "Whats the best deal you can give me?" Then as a seller, I can think about it and shoot a number. Than if someone wants to try and squeeze another 25 or 50, ok I get it. Of course I normally am not negotiating Schons or Pechauers. I think the used low end market may act a little differently.

As you mention a bad offer / response resonates for a long time. I write down those who have low balled me to make sure that if I get an e-mail from them for lets say a cue ID, I might not respond or I might have amnesia. So for both sides low balling leaves battle scars.

JV

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^That's also a very good point, I didn't think about that portion to thoroughly. I think this market is entirely different than vehicles.

CC you mind if we work a little scenario?

I saw before you had a Blackcreek for something like $1750 that I was pretty partial too. So, with that said...If I came forward and made the offer of say..$1000..what is your response?...Mind you this is all just a scenario. I don't have the $1000. I'm simply curious to how you respond, and then what my response will be.

In this case, I have an out.. my agreement with the cuemaker allows a little leeway, I would let you know that, and what the maximum discount would be.

Joe

aff said:

^That's also a very good point, I didn't think about that portion to thoroughly. I think this market is entirely different than vehicles.

Mark you mind if we work a little scenario?

I saw before you had a Blackcreek for something like $1750 that I was pretty partial too. So, with that said...If I came forward and made the offer of say..$1000..what is your response?...Mind you this is all just a scenario. I don't have the $1000. I'm simply curious to how you respond, and then what my response will be.

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In the same token, I would also like people who are selling things to present prices to me. Not this "make me an offer" bullsh*t. I always feel that they are using me to price their item. In this instance there isn't a colder shoulder I could present. Its the biggest turnoff and IMHO the most aggravating request. I take it very personally, I don't know why, but it really sets the stage for a meltdown... lol.

Probably because those same people get mad when I don't list a price, which is why 99% of all my stuff is always posted with a price. Unless is super collectible cues / cases where the buyer might want the transaction muted, and more off the radar.

Buying and selling is an art, sometimes I am Picasso, sometimes I finger paint.

JV

classiccues said:

In this case, I have an out.. my agreement with the cuemaker allows a little leeway, I would let you know that, and what the maximum discount would be.

Joe

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^another good point. I guess it all depends on the people doing the business. Some people I'm sure would be aggrivated by that offer on a $1750 cue. Others like you may come back and say "Well, I can't do that, but to work with you I can do say $1450"..In which case I would probably try to work something out with like a deposit of $1000 if you'd hold the cue for 2 weeks while I gather money to pay the rest.

aff said:

^another good point. I guess it all depends on the people doing the business. Some people I'm sure would be aggrivated by that offer on a $1750 cue. Others like you may come back and say "Well, I can't do that, but to work with you I can do say $1450"..In which case I would probably try to work something out with like a deposit of $1000 if you'd hold the cue for 2 weeks while I gather money to pay the rest.

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Ok you're talking the ebony cue. We have two at the 1750 range, one we reduced already. The ebony cue I would simply let you know its consigned for a good customer, make an offer, I'll present it to him and see what he says.

On this particular cue you have a different advantage, the customer is so good I don't have to make anything on the deal, as a favor to him, so there is no 10% charge, I can tell you that HE bought it from another dealer at full value, so he probably wouldn't go to far off the price shown.

So there are times that a low ball offer can be "deflected" and they sting less. They sometimes can be handled so there are no bad feelings on either side.

I think dealers have more outs on LB offers, than an individual. Its still aggravating, but can be handled a little less abrasively.

JV

Wanted/For Sale hijack!

When someone says "PM offers" and then they keep bumping for offers for a month, it tells me they are overpricing their product. It also tells me they are welcoming lowball offers. That's what happens when you leave the pricing up to the buyer! Buyers want a MONSTER deal that plays their wallets jam up! Stop crying about it.

I find it irritating that people make the 'threat' posts of "This is the last bump and then I am putting it back in the case," and then bumping it for another 5 pages. You just showed me how much of a flake you really are with your product. Lower your price, because no one wants it.

I find it irritating that people continue to bump their item for 9 pages without dropping the price. Clearly it isn't going to sell today at your ridiculous price if 24,000 views have continued to ignore it. Get a clue, please.

I find it irritating that people order custom cues with very... unique styling choices, and then get upset when they aren't being taken up on their offer to sell at near-retail. Why would I want your ugly cue for $1700? Maybe it hits phenomenally! I can buy a gorgeous McDermott or Schon that plays pretty comfortably for $200 if I pay attention. People forget that selling a custom cue, or anything for that matter, is not worth the sticker price to a person who didn't order it that way.

I find it irritating that people do not respect the concept of 'firm' pricing. While I may disagree with the price someone has, if they have it listed firm, I don't insult them with an offer of half that. I have mentioned to people in the past that I am interested if their price comes down some. Sometimes it works out, sometimes no. I expect the same for my posts. Oops, shame on me for a lack of realism.

I find it irritating that people sell scammy items on here, but it is against the rules to 'knock' their items. I have seen several definitely questionable items that are worthy of a peer review, but if I ran up and called the seller out, I am breaking the rules for knocking their sale.

I find it irritating when people say "PM for price and pictures". The only exception is to protect the collector's market and make certain transactions private. I still don't like it, because I am a peeping tom and like to see pictures :grin: ... but I understand it. When some clown has a production cue listed and says that, it makes me think the cue is stolen. I will also never buy from that seller.

I don't find it irritating when people communicate their wants. "I have this cue for sale, $1000. I do not want any trades at this time unless I am guaranteed $700 in cash plus trade. I expect to win on a trade. It is in great shape except for a ding in the butt sleeve, I have included this in a picture. Specs are x, y, and z" That is excellent use of the forum, and many questions are answered with general included specs and some decent photos. None of this "here's one blurry picture from my cell phone while I was wasted and unable to stand up straight" nonsense.

I know sellers will counter-rant about tire-kickers and whatever else, but that's part of selling something. If you don't want tire-kickers, lower your price. Like JB reminded us, Henry Ford had it down cold. Your stuff flies out the door when the price is right.

Most pool cues are not investment items. The value drops the moment it leaves the lot. Remember that. Unless you have a collectible gem, your Predator cue is not worth 80% of retail, even if it has shot 0 balls. You're not a dealer and I'm not sacrificing ease of warranty for only 20% off. Try 50%-60% off and it'll probably move. "Test hit only" means "I used it for 5 hours and hate it, so please take this cue off my hands that I say is a monster player."

</rant> :angry:

(╯°□°）╯︵ [ ¡¡¡ʇ**sןןnq sɟʍ ]

I can't believe no one replied to my post! I guess everyone loves the WFS forum perfectly.