14.1 - 7' Table vs 9' Table, Statistically Speaking

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Summary: A 7' table is significantly easier to play 14.1 on than a 9' table for a C+/B- speed player.

Introduction
There has been much discussion on what table is easier to play on: 7' vs 9'. John Schmidt has stated a 7' table is easier on several past threads. Others have stated a 9' table is easier (for amateur players) due to increased room to avoid congestion. Of course, a 7' table will always have much shorter shots.

Method
I have decided to determine for myself which table is easier. During the Thanksgiving holiday, I had a chance to play on a Diamond 7' table for a week straight. In that time, I took detailed statistics of all of my attempts. I have been doing the same on my 9' GC since I started playing 14.1 on it this summer. Every inning starts with a BIH break shot. When I miss, I record how many balls I ran, and then re-rack for a new break shot and new inning. No innings start from an open table (this makes a statistical difference, according to a BD article by Bob Jewett).

I was able to get 69 innings in before I no longer had access to this 7' table. I compared the results of these 69 innings to the last 69 innings I had of my home 9' table statistics. I have a total of 465 innings recorded on my home table. Although I only used the last 69 of the 465, the results of my "Ball Pocketing Probability" comparing the 69 innings to the 465 innings is actually very similar.

Playing Style
In reading past posts about this topic, many people said you run out of shots on a 7' because of the congestion. I found this to be not true in my experiment. I played the same style 14.1 on the 7' table as I did on the 9'. I went for the same break balls, and the same end patterns. I used the same principles of picking away the rack with minimal disturbance of the balls. I only went into balls when necessary. I found no adjustment necessary to my 14.1 strategy.

Table Specifics
Both tables were "player's" tables. An excellent condition GC4 with 5 1/8" pockets, and Simonis 860 cloth. The cloth was about 10 months old, home use only, and had just lost its slide. The 7' table was an excellent condition Diamond red label version. It too had Simonis 860 cloth that was 2 weeks old when I started playing on it. It was in a commercial environment. It still had a tiny bit of slide, but not much. Of note, I'm not a fan of Diamond cushions, and only play on them once a year at DCC. All my other play has been on GC's for the past 15 years. The pocket sizes on the two tables were almost identical.

Data
Please see the below data showing all of the specifics.

Straight Pool Table Size Statistics.png

Data Highlights
Some important highlights from the data:

Ball Pocketing Probability improved from 0.865 on a 9' to 0.908 on a 7'. This might not seem significant, but it is absolutely a huge improvement. For those of you who have done the math on this before, you will know how big of an improvement this is.

High run went from 27 on the 9' to 44 on the 7'.

Total balls pocketed in 69 innings went from 442 on the 9' to 680 on the 7'. (This is how the Ball Pocketing Probability is calculated)

Conclusion
A 7' table is significantly easier to play 14.1 on than a 9' table for a C+/B- speed player.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm curious whether you used different strategy on the bar box. I haven't played 14.1 on a bar box but it seems like you would want to go into the bottom of clusters and drive them up table to relieve congestion near the rack area.
 

plhlolelnlilx

F.I.S.H.
Silver Member
I don't play as much 14.1 anymore but when I do it's typically to warm up and is on 9' Diamonds. I haven't put a tape measure on any of the tables but I know I couldn't jam two well used balls into the jaws so they must be around 4-1/4". Not the most ideal conditions for Straight Pool or any other game for that matter but it's all I have.

4-1/4" Diamond 9' HR: 86
4-1/2" Diamond 7' HR: 51
5-1/8" Gold Crown III HR: 132

Even thought the lowest run was on the 7' Diamond, keep in mind that I only tried it one time and it was from the original BIH break. The shorter shots on the bar box allowed for tighter position play with very little cue ball movement.

The other runs on 9' tables were completed with BIH on the first rack only. However, rather than re-racking after a miss I would continue pocketing balls until all I had was a break ball and the CB. Both runs reflect a lifetime best on the given equipment.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Summary: A 7' table is significantly easier to play 14.1 on than a 9' table for a C+/B- speed player.

Introduction
There has been much discussion on what table is easier to play on: 7' vs 9'. John Schmidt has stated a 7' table is easier on several past threads. Others have stated a 9' table is easier (for amateur players) due to increased room to avoid congestion. Of course, a 7' table will always have much shorter shots.

Method
I have decided to determine for myself which table is easier. During the Thanksgiving holiday, I had a chance to play on a Diamond 7' table for a week straight. In that time, I took detailed statistics of all of my attempts. I have been doing the same on my 9' GC since I started playing 14.1 on it this summer. Every inning starts with a BIH break shot. When I miss, I record how many balls I ran, and then re-rack for a new break shot and new inning. No innings start from an open table (this makes a statistical difference, according to a BD article by Bob Jewett).

I was able to get 69 innings in before I no longer had access to this 7' table. I compared the results of these 69 innings to the last 69 innings I had of my home 9' table statistics. I have a total of 465 innings recorded on my home table. Although I only used the last 69 of the 465, the results of my "Ball Pocketing Probability" comparing the 69 innings to the 465 innings is actually very similar.

Playing Style
In reading past posts about this topic, many people said you run out of shots on a 7' because of the congestion. I found this to be not true in my experiment. I played the same style 14.1 on the 7' table as I did on the 9'. I went for the same break balls, and the same end patterns. I used the same principles of picking away the rack with minimal disturbance of the balls. I only went into balls when necessary. I found no adjustment necessary to my 14.1 strategy.

Table Specifics
Both tables were "player's" tables. An excellent condition GC4 with 5 1/8" pockets, and Simonis 860 cloth. The cloth was about 10 months old, home use only, and had just lost its slide. The 7' table was an excellent condition Diamond red label version. It too had Simonis 860 cloth that was 2 weeks old when I started playing on it. It was in a commercial environment. It still had a tiny bit of slide, but not much. Of note, I'm not a fan of Diamond cushions, and only play on them once a year at DCC. All my other play has been on GC's for the past 15 years. The pocket sizes on the two tables were almost identical.

Data
Please see the below data showing all of the specifics.

View attachment 308357

Data Highlights
Some important highlights from the data:

Ball Pocketing Probability improved from 0.865 on a 9' to 0.908 on a 7'. This might not seem significant, but it is absolutely a huge improvement. For those of you who have done the math on this before, you will know how big of an improvement this is.

High run went from 27 on the 9' to 44 on the 7'.

Total balls pocketed in 69 innings went from 442 on the 9' to 680 on the 7'. (This is how the Ball Pocketing Probability is calculated)

Conclusion
A 7' table is significantly easier to play 14.1 on than a 9' table for a C+/B- speed player.
Thank you for posting all of this useful info. I wish we had data like this for a wide range of players over a wider range of table and pocket sizes, and for all games. It would also be interesting to see how BU Exam scores and ratings would vary with the table and pocket sizes. Did you get a chance to try the BU Exams on the 7' table? If you did, please post the results on the AZB BU thread. If not, maybe you can do the exams the next time you're at the table.

Again, good work, and thank you for posting the info,
Dave

PS: You got very close to your 50 goal. Good job!
 

eales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Curiousity

Do you estimate your probability of pocketing a ball by maximum likelihood?

Jim Eales
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm curious whether you used different strategy on the bar box. I haven't played 14.1 on a bar box but it seems like you would want to go into the bottom of clusters and drive them up table to relieve congestion near the rack area.

I used the same strategy. Didn't change a thing. There really was not extra congestion. I got through the racks way better than on my 9' table. I didn't push the balls up table. I played the same style as the 9' table. That was the crux of this. So many back and forth debate that a 7' table would be harder due to increased congestion. I simply found that to be a myth based on my extensive trials on both tables. That said, I'm just an intermediate player, so my strategy is probably not all that great to begin with;)

Actually, I did change the break slightly. I had to move the BIH break shot a hair to get the same hit on the rack. I think this was due to the lesser space between the rail and the rack on the smaller table, so the CB wasn't bending forward as much before it hit the rack, and was ending up going to the head of the table before I made the adjustment.
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't play as much 14.1 anymore but when I do it's typically to warm up and is on 9' Diamonds. I haven't put a tape measure on any of the tables but I know I couldn't jam two well used balls into the jaws so they must be around 4-1/4". Not the most ideal conditions for Straight Pool or any other game for that matter but it's all I have.

4-1/4" Diamond 9' HR: 86
4-1/2" Diamond 7' HR: 51
5-1/8" Gold Crown III HR: 132

Even thought the lowest run was on the 7' Diamond, keep in mind that I only tried it one time and it was from the original BIH break. The shorter shots on the bar box allowed for tighter position play with very little cue ball movement.

The other runs on 9' tables were completed with BIH on the first rack only. However, rather than re-racking after a miss I would continue pocketing balls until all I had was a break ball and the CB. Both runs reflect a lifetime best on the given equipment.

Thats great. My experience was similar. Within one day of playing on the 7' table, I had broken my lifetime high run on the 9' table.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you for posting all of this useful info. I wish we had data like this for a wide range of players over a wider range of table and pocket sizes, and for all games. It would also be interesting to see how BU Exam scores and ratings would vary with the table and pocket sizes. Did you get a chance to try the BU Exams on the 7' table? If you did, please post the results on the AZB BU thread. If not, maybe you can do the exams the next time you're at the table.

Again, good work, and thank you for posting the info,
Dave

PS: You got very close to your 50 goal. Good job!

Thank you.
Its really hard work to record everything systematically. I'm real anal about a lot of things, that's why I set out to do this. But probably not many other players are going to go through the trouble.

No, I did not try the BU exam. My sole goal was to play as much straight pool on the 7' as I could.

I was thinking about the 50 ball run, when it was obvious it was a strong possibility. I don't think I would count it, or at the minimum put an asterisks next to it and say it was on a 7' :)
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you estimate your probability of pocketing a ball by maximum likelihood?

Jim Eales

The math is:

Probability of a run = Ball pocketing probability ^ Run goal

So the probability of running 40 balls for me on the 7' would be:
.908^40 = .0210, or 2.1%

If you multiply that by the number of trials you took, 69 in my case, you get the number of times expected to run 40 balls in 69 attempts.

That is .0210*69 = 1.45 (the spreadsheet has it rounded up to 1.5).

To figure out the Ball Pocketing Probablitly, you take the total number of balls you pocketed and divide by the total number of balls you shot at.

So on the 7' I made 680 balls in 69 inning.
The math is 680 / (680 + 69)
= 680/749
=.907

That means on average, every time I come to the table, my probability of making any given shot is .907 or 90.7%.

Compare to the 9' table, I made 442 shots in 69 innings.
=442 / (442+69)
=.865

And then if we plug that number into the chance to run 40 balls, we get:
.865^40 = .003, or .3%

And then if we multiply that by the number of innings, we get
.003*69 = .2 expected occurrences of a 40 ball run in 69 attempts.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I want to add, I have a ton of innings recorded on the 9' (hundreds). If you want to get your ball pocketing probability, you need to log a LOT of innings, starting each from the break shot. 10 will not cut it. The reason is, it stabilizes over time. I graphed it out, and although I did not do a complete analysis, it seems to stabilize after about 50 innings of play.

Based on this stabilization after about 50 innings of play (of several hundred innings) on the 9', I feel that my test of 69 total innings on the 7' table has reached stabilzation.
 

metallicane

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I play on an eight footer at home and complain about congestion all the time. Maybe I should just play and be happy the table time is paid.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
In reference to the table dimensions, I thought Diamonds had 4 1/2" (or just slightly larger) corner pockets. I had my GC modified to 4 1/2" pockets, they are slightly smaller than the Diamond Smart tables we play leagues on (most are red label, the one at our home bar is a blue label)
I was surprised to see your average go up on the Diamond simply because they have a tendency to reject a ball that would probably go in on another table, my GC plays very similar to the Diamond Smart tables, its just bigger.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In reference to the table dimensions, I thought Diamonds had 4 1/2" (or just slightly larger) corner pockets. I had my GC modified to 4 1/2" pockets, they are slightly smaller than the Diamond Smart tables we play leagues on (most are red label, the one at our home bar is a blue label)
I was surprised to see your average go up on the Diamond simply because they have a tendency to reject a ball that would probably go in on another table, my GC plays very similar to the Diamond Smart tables, its just bigger.

I think these are "league cut" Diamond pockets. The "tough" Diamond pockets that are about 4.5" are the "pro cut" pockets. And now Diamond offers the super tight TAR table pocket dimensions. They too have a new name, a friend of mine just got a table with them, but I forgot the name.

Anyway, the pockets played the same to me as my GC. All of the dimensions were virtually identical. No abnormal pocket spit outs.

I believe these tables came from one of the Hopkins expos 5 or so years ago. The room is in the Philadelphia suburbs. The room has two of these Diamond 7' tables, the rest 9' GC4.
 
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