Unknown Titlist- Help Identify

DEGAMO88

DEGAMO88

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would appreciate anyone's help in identifying the maker of this cue. The previous owner picked this cue up in Northern California, so there's a possibility that the cuemaker is from the west coast. Here are the specs:

Shaft Length: 28-1/2 in.
Weight: 3.1 oz.
Tip: 11.50 mm
Ferrule: Black fiber
Ferrule Length: 3/4 in.

Butt Length: 27-1/2 in.
Weight: 16.3 oz.
Joint: Piloted Fiber
Joint Length: 1-1/8 in. long
Joint Diameter: .858 in.
Pin: 3/8-14, possibly aluminum
Forearm length: 14.5 in.
Handle length: 10 in.
Buttsleeve length: 3 in.
Buttsleeve: Synthetic
Hoppe Ring: 3/8 in. (synthetic)
Buttcap Diameter: 1.350 in.

Misc: Stamped "Jimmie Santora" on forearm, leather wrap, no weight bolt- buttsleeve/ cap is sleeved over solid wood, Brunswick bumper?
 
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The key to unravelling this mystery may be the joint/ pin combination. Any idea who may have used the piloted joint with the 3/8-14 pin?
 
This is a pic of the bottom of the cue. The bumper has an "H" stamped on its flat side. This could be an early TAD, although I have yet to confirm this. Another possiblity is Tex Zimmerman who made cues in the bay area around this time. If you have any info on him, feel free to post.
 
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UPDATE:

The cue's origin is still a mystery, but I do know for certain that the pin is 3/8-12 after matching it against 3/8-10 and 3/8-11 pins. After scouring the net and the Blue Book of Cues for cues made with this type of pin, the only leads I have right now is TAD (who doesn't answer his phone), and a Balabushka sneaky pete that was on chalkers website. This cue will be for sale soon, and I was wondering what y'all thought about its approximate value.
 
Just a couple of observations. This cue doesn't make much sense to me. The joint collar looks like the early ones Brunswick used in the first few years of production of the Willie Hoppe Professional. Brass was in demand so they used a version of modern phenolic. But the butt section obviously isn't original. It looks like someone changed the joint pin and made a butt to look like a professional. I suppose it could have been a one piece Titlist at one point but who would put that joint on it?

The work on the cue looks amatuerish. You can probably sell it for the forearm value for a conversion if the forearm is straight. Maybe $250 - $300.

Chris
 
TATE said:
Just a couple of observations. This cue doesn't make much sense to me. The joint collar looks like the early ones Brunswick used in the first few years of production of the Willie Hoppe Professional. Brass was in demand so they used a version of modern phenolic. But the butt section obviously isn't original. It looks like someone changed the joint pin and made a butt to look like a professional. I suppose it could have been a one piece Titlist at one point but who would put that joint on it?

The work on the cue looks amatuerish. You can probably sell it for the forearm value for a conversion if the forearm is straight. Maybe $250 - $300.

Chris
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Chris he's throwing around words like TAD and Bushka sneaky, do you really think 300 is something he's considering??

Jim
 
JimBo said:
Chris he's throwing around words like TAD and Bushka sneaky, do you really think 300 is something he's considering??

Jim
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You're right Jimbo. I'm hoping that this is a famous cuemaker's early work. Judging from the type of materials used, I'm guessing that the cue was made in the 60's, which narrows the field of possible cuemakers to cuemakers from that era. The cue was sold by someone in California, and the cue has an aluminum 3/8-12 pin like the one used by TAD.
 
TATE said:
Just a couple of observations. This cue doesn't make much sense to me. The joint collar looks like the early ones Brunswick used in the first few years of production of the Willie Hoppe Professional. Brass was in demand so they used a version of modern phenolic.

But the butt section obviously isn't original. It looks like someone changed the joint pin and made a butt to look like a professional. I suppose it could have been a one piece Titlist at one point but who would put that joint on it?

The work on the cue looks amatuerish. You can probably sell it for the forearm value for a conversion if the forearm is straight. Maybe $250 - $300.

Chris
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The work isn't of the highest quality, but then again, cuemakers from that era didn't have access to the best lathes, glues, and training materials that they do today.

I will tell you this: whomever converted the cue knew how to 1) get the pin dead nuts straight, 2) cut a channel for the wrap, 3) put on a leather wrap (a good job in my opinion), 4) turn down the end of the cue to sleeve the pieces of phenolic over.

It seems to me that it took a lot of knowledge to do all these things right, considering when it was built. Anyone who is knowledgeable about cuebuilding, feel free to chime in.
 
DEGAMO88 said:
The work isn't of the highest quality, but then again, cuemakers from that era didn't have access to the best lathes, glues, and training materials that they do today.

I will tell you this: whomever converted the cue knew how to 1) get the pin dead nuts straight, 2) cut a channel for the wrap, 3) put on a leather wrap (a good job in my opinion), 4) turn down the end of the cue to sleeve the pieces of phenolic over.

It seems to me that it took a lot of knowledge to do all these things right, considering when it was built. Anyone who is knowledgeable about cuebuilding, feel free to chime in.
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See, that's what I wonder - why would they use that old linen phenolic for the joint collar? It looks like it came off a Brunswick from about 1942 not the 1960's. I wonder also if the butt sleeve was made for the cue, or just cut off another cue and put on it? A plasitc butt sleeve would be something from the 1970's earliest most likely. Who would use a black plastic butt sleeve with plastic white ring if they were building on a conversion cue with rosewood points?

I think we are looking at a cue that was modified a number of times in a number of ways, but whoever put on that plastic buttsleeve should be put out to pasture.

Chris
 
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Who's to say it isn't a Jimmie Sentora? I know INGRAM brands his cues similarly. Unless you know this Mr. Sentora, it is a possibility. It has no similarity to any Tad or Bushka I have ever seen or heard of. I think Tate is pretty close in his call on this one. I don't know of any older really collectible cues with that style of rubber bumper, and it doesn't look like it was made for any other style. Tad's early cues had, in many cases, unusually long butt sleeves and butt caps.

I personally don't think you have a really desirable collectible cue here. Post this in the wanted/for sale section with the same questions. You may get more info, as that is surfed a bit more often by others than this cue gallery.
 
cuenut said:
Who's to say it isn't a Jimmie Sentora? I know INGRAM brands his cues similarly. Unless you know this Mr. Sentora, it is a possibility. It has no similarity to any Tad or Bushka I have ever seen or heard of. I think Tate is pretty close in his call on this one. I don't know of any older really collectible cues with that style of rubber bumper, and it doesn't look like it was made for any other style. Tad's early cues had, in many cases, unusually long butt sleeves and butt caps.

I personally don't think you have a really desirable collectible cue here. Post this in the wanted/for sale section with the same questions. You may get more info, as that is surfed a bit more often by others than this cue gallery.
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I think it's a conversion from a 1-piece, simply because the forearm signature is still there, but it is showing more of the points than you would see on a 2-piece and the forearm signature is low enough that the joint would have been too thin for a 2-piece conversion, but still manageable with a 1-piece. Also, forearm signature is the one Brunswick started using in 1946+ ...nothing too interesting, just observations.
 
cuenut said:
Who's to say it isn't a Jimmie Sentora? I know INGRAM brands his cues similarly. Unless you know this Mr. Sentora, it is a possibility. It has no similarity to any Tad or Bushka I have ever seen or heard of. I think Tate is pretty close in his call on this one. I don't know of any older really collectible cues with that style of rubber bumper, and it doesn't look like it was made for any other style. Tad's early cues had, in many cases, unusually long butt sleeves and butt caps.

I personally don't think you have a really desirable collectible cue here. Post this in the wanted/for sale section with the same questions. You may get more info, as that is surfed a bit more often by others than this cue gallery.
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After comparing the bumper to other one-piece titlist cues I've come across, I can safely say that the bumper came from the original titlist cue.

With regards to the cue being a TAD, The Blue Book of Pool Cues does state that "the first Tad cues were Brunswick Titlists cut in half, to which he added a joint" and "early examples of Tad's cues may have plastic rings or, more rarely, plastic windows in the butt sleeve, and even plastic handles". The earliest photograph of a TAD cue in the Blue Book is from 1964 (he started in 1963), so there could be a possibility, however slim, that this was one of the first cues that he put together.
 
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runscott said:
I think it's a conversion from a 1-piece, simply because the forearm signature is still there, but it is showing more of the points than you would see on a 2-piece and the forearm signature is low enough that the joint would have been too thin for a 2-piece conversion, but still manageable with a 1-piece. Also, forearm signature is the one Brunswick started using in 1946+ ...nothing too interesting, just observations.
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Firstly, thank you for sharing your knowledge of Titlist cues with the masses. Your website has provided Titlist lovers like myself a ton of knowledge to glean from. With regards to the cue, you're right about it being converted from a one-piece Titlist, based on the fact that the wrap's channel begins close to the bottom of the points. Nailing down the production year of this cue was something I've always wondered about. Thanks!
 
TATE said:
See, that's what I wonder - why would they use that old linen phenolic for the joint collar? It looks like it came off a Brunswick from about 1942 not the 1960's. I wonder also if the butt sleeve was made for the cue, or just cut off another cue and put on it? A plasitc butt sleeve would be something from the 1970's earliest most likely. Who would use a black plastic butt sleeve with plastic white ring if they were building on a conversion cue with rosewood points?

I think we are looking at a cue that was modified a number of times in a number of ways, but whoever put on that plastic buttsleeve should be put out to pasture.

Chris
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Chris, you're right about it looking like it was made earlier than the 60's, based on the photos. I came to that guesstimate based on information from the Blue Book. If the information in the book is correct, Balabushka, Viking, and Gina all used black plastic in their buttsleeves early in their careers, which would roughly date the cue to the 60's. Then again, I've been wrong before, and it could've easily been made before the 60's.

With regards to the buttsleeve, after looking at the wood at bottom of the cue with the bumper off, I can safely say that the plastic parts were sleeved and not threaded to the bottom.

It's a very interesting cue to look at for Titlist collectors like myself.
 
DEGAMO88 said:
Chris, you're right about it looking like it was made earlier than the 60's, based on the photos. I came to that guesstimate based on information from the Blue Book. If the information in the book is correct, Balabushka, Viking, and Gina all used black plastic in their buttsleeves early in their careers, which would roughly date the cue to the 60's. Then again, I've been wrong before, and it could've easily been made before the 60's.

With regards to the buttsleeve, after looking at the wood at bottom of the cue with the bumper off, I can safely say that the plastic parts were sleeved and not threaded to the bottom.

It's a very interesting cue to look at for Titlist collectors like myself.
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So, with this information and what Runscott said, it's a conversion of a one piece Titlist. The original Titlist was from the 1940's to early 1950's era. They probably kept the bumper from the original cue.

While Balabushka scoured pool rooms in the east for used Titlists for his cues and made "conversions" before anyone ever heard of the word conversion, he and Tad and Gina never left the Willie Hoppe brand on the forearm as far as I know. To leave this on the cue became popular in much later years, and these makers would have probably considered this a "negative" to their own brand. Rambow did leave the weight imprint on many of his cues, and he also was able to get "blanks", where many of the onsey-twosey cue makers like Balabushka couldn't buy "blanks" from Brunswick because of their low volume. In fact, I don't recall a true post-Brunswick era Rambow made cue that has the Willie Hoppe imprint on it either.

Plastic was used by Balabushka, Paradise, Viking and Palmer in the 1960's (plastic was all the rage in the 1960's!) mainly for collars, rings, and decorative butt sleeves, but full sleeves of black plastic to replace ebony didn't get popular until the early 1970's when Viking and Palmer started using black plastic instead of ebony to better control the weight and lower production costs.

Like I said, I am a little baffled at the choices the cue maker used for this cue. While I appreciate historic cues, without a history on this one it seems like mission impossible to piece together this story.

Chris
 
titlist

Could it be a Whitehead & Zimmerman they made alot of cues in that era.
I have a friend that worked there for years i will show him the picture's. My friend made alot of cut down hoppe and national butts into cues. Its a shot.
 
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