What is an amateur?

The IRS does not consider pool to be a profession unless you have profited three years in a row. Check it out if you don't believe me I just tried for the first time in years to file my taxes on my earnings and they said pool is not on the list. Snooker is but, pocket billiards is not. It falls into an unearned income and without another income it is considered a hobbie unless like I said you profit over a certain amount three years in a row. The reason golf is different is because Uncle sam thinks it is a sport. He looks at pool in the same way he looks at bumper pool or air hockey it is a table game and that is what the IRS told me on the phone when I talked to them last Febuary. Not to say there isn't new laws but, this is what I was told by the IRS. I hope this clears up the confussion from my last post.
Jamison Neu
 
Tax

In my understanding of my tax preparer, they said 'if' (and it's a big IF for me:cool: ) I won any money, it would be considered in the same catagory as gambling winnings, lottery, raffle, etc.:eek: Some expenses for the activity could be applies against the winnings to see if there was a net income. Then tax that. I guess it's a good thing I don't win. ;)

FWIW.

My second thought is if the definition applies, dang near everyone is an 'amateur' in this game. Makes handicapping tournaments, or holding events a bit of a headache doesn't it? I always hear the rumblings, whining, scuttlebutt, whatever of people, so and so is a pro, so and so is way to good to be in this tournament, yada, yada, yada.

I say rack 'em and lets play.
 
JamisonNeu said:
I agree with this statement. Unfortunatly uncle sam doesn't want money from a pool player unless he profits from pool three consecutive years. Sorry to those of us that have only done it for two and then get dumped by our posing sponsor's. Live and learn always get contracts. If someone doesn't like contracts it is because they want the option of screwing you.

The second part of this post is where I draw my line. I think if you can safely say "I will be taking care of my family no matter how I finish." then you are a pro. 38.46 a day doesn't cover it. It boils down to getting paid to show up. Like a bench warmer you get paid just to be there. This is the difference.
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Or they don't want to be screwed. Whether pool is considered a sport/profession by the IRS is irrelevant to having to claim your income. As an individual whenever you are being paid money for your services then you must claim that money as earned income. You can then also claim your related expenses against it. If the balance is then on the positive side and above a certain level then you owe taxes on it. If you don't "make" any money after expenses then you don't owe any taxes.

As far as your comments concerning sponsors go. I am not really sure who you would consider to be a "poser" sponsor. Would you care to name any names? I don't really see the relevance to the question of who is an amateur and who is a professional. If you mean that a sponsor who won't agree to a three year contract for IRS definition purposes is a "poser" then I have call BS on that. One, the sponsorship itself does not neccesarily guarantee you a profit and two, getting paid for playing a game is somehow a bad thing? I mean anyone who pays a person ANYTHING to PLAY a GAME is certainly NOT a "poser". It's free money, free products, free exposure for the player.

We can argue about what a player is "worth" but at the end of the day a pool player is being paid for what is in reality a PASTIME. Most people work hard so they can enjoy being entertained by professionals who play games. It is the player who chooses to make a GAME his profession who is the real poser in the GAME of LIFE.

Now, I respect and envy my professional pool player friends a lot. A lot of times they are broke and on shaky ground regarding their earnings potential. But, for the most part they are living the life they chose and are pretty happy with the freedom it affords them. I take great exception to ANYONE who deigns to criticize the sponsors of pool players. If you are getting free money, stuff, exposure, help, support then step up and at least act like the professional you are.

Don't be a WHINER. Be a WINNER!!!

John
 
Question.

If Tiger Woods is making more money doing endorsements and advertising than he is playing golf...then he would be an amateur golfer. Wow. Just imagine how good he will be when he gets serious about it!:rolleyes:

With pool.... Its not really a sport to many; its a game with skill. I think its hard to have iron clad definitions of professional in a game. I also think professional is a state of mind and behavior too. Some players have to learn this. I think Landon Shuffet is MORE professional than some long time players who shall not be named. And what is he...12?

Just some rants from a guy who runs a rack about 3 times a year.
(Some friends think this makes me a pro level player) :)
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Funny story about a local player/instructor.
Mark Wilson goes to a St. Louis Blues hockey game one night and they have a booth set up for free beach towels when you fill out a application for a Visa card. There is this young kid working the booth. Mark fills out the clipboard and hands it back to the kid for his free towel. The kid says..."Sir..for occupation you put down pool player? Thats not a profession." Mark smiles..and answers."Hey kid...if you don't make fun of MY job...I won't make fun of yours...deal?" The kid handed Mark the free towel.

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onepocketchump
Whoa. I didn't refer to names because, There isn't any I was trying to speak generaly. You know me well enough to know that I don't beat around the bush. If there is something you have to say then you have my number. I don't think that AZB is the place for this conversation.
Jamison

cueandcushion
I never have said this here on AZB but, I love your pool hall and think of it as one of the very best in the whole country. I played my first game of three cushion there and have nothing but, good memories from there. I never saw any bad things happen while I was in Cue and Cushion. I really like the counter at the door I don't really know why but, I do. It was kind of like clocking in.
Jamison
 
A few additional comments.

First, the tax implications being discussed here are US tax law based, and irrelevant to anyone outside the US. The question of pro vs amateur is a world wide question. I do not believe that the IRS in the US has any bearing on who might be considered a pro and who might be considered an amateur, nor does Revenue Canada. They may want to classify people, but that is for their purpose only, and should not be used by a sport to determin amateur/professional status.

Second, the issues of sponsorship money and endorsement money are covered by those properly regulating amateur status, for example the RCGA for Canadian golfers. I've got this nagging suspicion that the NCAA has similar rules for US collegiate athletics ;) .

Syndicates of investors supporting an up and coming golfer can have some confidence that there will be a reward if their golfer makes the grade. There is nowhere near the same reward in pool ... and I wonder how much confidence one can have in any rewards in pool these days.

Dave
 
JamisonNeu said:
BRKNRUN,
I am sponsored and yes, the first one found me. As well as the one I have now. We don't have a contract for me to play in the IPT. I have not thought of it before Zeeders post (Thank's Zack). As this is not my first sponsor I know better than to try and add things on to the deal midway. Seeing how I don't wish to change current management what I was saying to answer Zeeder's post is maybe, I could just add one more on to the list of sponsor's I allready have.

Eric,
In short yes, I would love this chance to make myself some more grip. Wouldn't you?

Have you ever been to a highroller room in Vegas? I think 2g is alot but, some don't.

I am not asking anybody for risk free money. I am after all the one who has to play and/or endorse products for them. Not only that how did this thread get turned around and focused on me.

Are you implying that all sponsored players are asking for risk free money?

Jamison
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BTW, you are asking for someone to give you a chance for income with minimal financial risk on your part. Basically, that is asking someone else to bear the financial burden of YOU going out to play a game you enjoy. What's in it for them? What is the sponsor's value of your endorsements?

I appreciate any chances I have for further income. The thing is; it's not owed to me and not a birth right. You have to go get it and not expect it to fall in your lap. Having a family to think of doesn't give your need for income more priority than anyone else nor does anyone else feel your needs are higher. If your family's financial needs are a big concern, you should probably be in a line of work with higher income potential. Expecting Pool to be structured and pay like some of the "major" sports is naive and unrealistic. There just isn't the same level of sponsorship dollars and, as you might guess, business needs to be "win-win". If sponsors don't stand to make big bucks, they aint gonna dish out big bucks. With the smaller revenues in Pool, you should feel lucky to have even a "poser" sponsor throw even a few bucks your way. For that matter, until you can show how YOU can make the sponsor more money, all YOU can expect is "poser" sponsorship.


Eric


your quote:

Zeeder,
2G is alot of cash to risk when you are not living with mom and dad. I have a family to think of and 2 grand is alot of bacon. What happend to try outs that would be more like pro sports. Not to say I wouldn't enter contract with a respected company looking to split profit when I get in.
Jamison
__________________
Jamison Neu
http://jamisonneu.com/
 
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I don't ever recall asking for a handout. As for what I can bring to a sponsorship unless you are looking to sponsor me, and obviously you are not. Then why do you care?
I mentioned my family to Zeeder because he is a friend and he might not have known I had one. When he suggested I enter the IPT, I simply answered his post.
Have a nice day. :)
 
In this clip, starting about half way through, Steve Davis talks about the importance of winning the Pot Black tournament back in the 70s.

It was not the money, it was simply the recognition received that enabled the winner to go on and make money with exhibitions, with the requirement that the player had to learn trick shots to entertain the crowd.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wFQe1T39Rfc&mode=related&search=
 
JamisonNeu said:
I don't ever recall asking for a handout. As for what I can bring to a sponsorship unless you are looking to sponsor me, and obviously you are not. Then why do you care?
I mentioned my family to Zeeder because he is a friend and he might not have known I had one. When he suggested I enter the IPT, I simply answered his post.
Have a nice day. :)
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Sorry to stir up so much shit Jamison...lol.
 
Jamison,

I answered you in a general way as well and invited you to be more specific if you wanted to be. I certainly am in the category of sponsors having been one with Instroke and being employed by one with Sterling. I take exception to any sponsors being labeled as "posers" for the reasons I listed.

I have nothing to say to you on this subject other than having responded to your own comments. If you really do feel the way you have stated on this board then it is clear why you don't have any substantial sponsorship.

Sponsorship is a gift - at all levels it is a gift. Everyone has the right to refuse that gift if they want to and ask for more. If a player accepts a sponsirship then they ought to work hard to make sure they represent themselves and the companies they are sponsored by professionally and diligently.

Remember that sponsors don't like to feel like suckers either.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
Jamison,

I answered you in a general way as well and invited you to be more specific if you wanted to be. I certainly am in the category of sponsors having been one with Instroke and being employed by one with Sterling. I take exception to any sponsors being labeled as "posers" for the reasons I listed.

I have nothing to say to you on this subject other than having responded to your own comments. If you really do feel the way you have stated on this board then it is clear why you don't have any substantial sponsorship.

Sponsorship is a gift - at all levels it is a gift. Everyone has the right to refuse that gift if they want to and ask for more. If a player accepts a sponsirship then they ought to work hard to make sure they represent themselves and the companies they are sponsored by professionally and diligently.

Remember that sponsors don't like to feel like suckers either.

John
Click to expand...

onepocketchump,
I believe sponsorship is a two way street. I believe I represented myself as professionaly and diligently as every one of the companies that I have WORKED for. I am perfectly happy with my current sponsorship which is substantial and honorable enough of a sponsor for anyone. I apologize if my opinions on 'poser' sponsors offended you, but I don't remember ever pointing fingers. There are good and bad sponsors just like in anything else in life. I never said all sponsor's were good or all were bad. I was trying to warn others who may in the future have sponsorship to be clear on what they are getting into before they jump into the deep end without a life jacket.
Jamison
 
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