So What Is The Real Rule For Double Hit/Push Shot?

Dhakala said:
A red herring fished up by a straw man.

As for physicists who play pool, start with Coriolis and look up Ron Shephard.



Not the rules committee, I presume.



Bob? Does Jay have a verifiable copy of Eight Ball's original rules, written contemporaneously with the game's invention?
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David, considering your outstanding history as a Tournament Director of many major championships, I will have to defer to your judgement. How I overlooked your fabled career is beyond me.

Far be it from me to call a foul again without first consulting the Rules By David.
 
jsp said:
... I remember a thread a couple months back that asked to define a "banger". I posted that if you cannot tell the difference between a double-hit and a good hit based on the reaction of the CB, then you are probably a banger.

Either there are a lot of bangers out there, or my standards are way too high. For now, I'll just assume the latter. ;)
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I played one of Lassiter's road partners in a tournament in the 1960's. He assured me that the cue ball went forward on a double hit not because the cue ball was struck twice but rather because of the "extra momentum" the cue ball had from having recently been struck. I don't remember how we were playing it in that tournament.

For an example of an absolutely standard fouette, see Figure 66 on the web page http://www.ffbillard.org/decouvrir/artistique/artistique1.htm
Some of the other shots there are also remarkable. There is a DVD by Jean Reverchon (the guy pictured on the page) making all the shots diagrammed.
 
jay helfert said:
Bob,

I would contend to you that even in the 60's, the Eight on the break was a win. That is the way Eight Ball was played everywhere! In bars and in bar table tournaments. Do you have a rule book from the 60's that says otherwise?

In my lifetime this only began to change, when the BCA instituted their new rule several years ago. Yes, it may be a "rule" now. As far as I'm concerned, a blotch on the record of the rules committee members who thought this one up. Not that they care. I'm not losing any sleep over it either. When I was asked to be on this committee, I replied that I would lobby for a change in this rule among others.

I suspect the reason the Eight on the break is not mentioned in the 1914 rules of Pyramid, is that the players broke safe. So there were no Eights on the break back then. The oral history from that era suggests that in all full rack games, a safe break was employed, similar to the 14.1 break. This includes Rotation, Line up, Pyramid etc.
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Don't forget about the vendor or the room owner, wonder how many quick bucks Gary Benson made with the 8 on the break in his lifetime.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I see it differently, as I have said. While it would have been good to have a slightly different angle for judging the shot -- at a right angle to the path of the 15 -- I think the angle of the cue ball is unambiguously ahead of that perpendicular -- as in jsp's diagram -- and I believe the cue ball was struck below center. I believe the small hop is a red herring.
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Such are the vagaries of judging pool shots via YouTube. :)
 
jay helfert said:
Thank you David. It hasn't been easy with all the pseudo Zen masters out there. LOL
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Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

Walks quietly to the door....

Opens it...

Quietly whispers "I agree"....

Runs away. :D
 
jay helfert said:
Thank you David. It hasn't been easy with all the pseudo Zen masters out there. LOL
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Each of us is born a Zen master, Jay. It's all the illusions piled upon us later, like mud disguising porcelain, that is "pseudo". One regains one's birthright of Zen mastery by washing one's body, mind, and spirit clean of illusions. Zen Cueism is just one of many kinds of washing machine available.

Here is a Zen koan for you to meditate upon:

What is so ugly that it is beautiful?

One answer is here. :D
 
Dhakala said:
Each of us is born a Zen master, Jay. It's all the illusions piled upon us later, like mud disguising porcelain, that is "pseudo". One regains one's birthright of Zen mastery by washing one's body, mind, and spirit clean of illusions. Zen Cueism is just one of many kinds of washing machine available.

Here is a Zen koan for you to meditate upon:

What is so ugly that it is beautiful?

One answer is here. :D
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Thanks for the enlightenment David. Not sure what this has to do with push shots though. Look forward to meeting you one day.
 
freddy the beard said:
Originally Posted by freddy the beard
Ronnie Allen called a double hit on me in California for big money. To this day I maintain I made a good hit. Coincidentally, it was the game ball. I was playing him 9 to 7 banks so I was certainly not going to give in on the shot. We wound up quitting.
the Beard



We just called the game off. Nobody won. Incidentally, the stroke I used was extreme elevation, hard. The cue ball went 8 inches straight up in the air and fell back to the table near the same spot it went up. It was 20 years before we gambled again.

the Beard
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Well, you've waited a long time for this, so here's my official ruling...

good hit.

Now go collect from Ronnie and I only want one-third.
 
Island Drive said:
Don't forget about the vendor or the room owner, wonder how many quick bucks Gary Benson made with the 8 on the break in his lifetime.
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OMG!!!! Do you ever rest??
 
PoolBum said:
Well, you've waited a long time for this, so here's my official ruling...

good hit.

Now go collect from Ronnie and I only want one-third.
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Lots of luck!!
 
fred_in_hoboken said:
The eight on the break complaint is a strawman. New rules, and new understanding of physics are different arguments.

If you watch the video Dhakala posted, it seems pretty clear that a straight shot "through" a frozen object ball is not a foul. The cue's contact with the cue ball lasts at most several thousandths of a second, just as with any other legal stroke.
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On one of the videos, shows two chalk marks on the "cue ball". I would assume that all chalk was cleaned from both balls before each shot was attempted. I too could not see multiple hits of the tip on the "cue ball" but where did those two marks of chalk come from?
JoeyA
 
I'm still undecided on the (legal) push shot. Something about it feels completely wrong to me, but I can't come up with a solid logical argument about why it should be illegal. I really don't like the fact that you can shoot full through a frozen ball and have the cue ball fly forward at 100 miles an hour.

One case comes to mind, which just doesn't seem to me like it should be allowed. I'll lead up to it with some other WEI's...

So, if shooting through a frozen ball would be legal, would it follow that the shots below would also be legal? ....

CueTable Help




CueTable Help



CueTable Help



Could you use a push shot to completely smash the rack open in the above 14:1 or 1-pocket scenario? I'd sure hate to have to watch the hit on that shot. :(
 
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