Inside English vs Outside English

Bob Jewett said:

I think that is the best way to describe what is going on. Inside/outside for the object ball rub and running/reverse for the cushion.

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I think that's how it's most often used, but is it the way that causes least confusion? After all, the question keeps coming up.

To be most clear, assume you're spinning the CB with the stick (not with contact-induced spin from the OB):

If you hit the CB on the side closest to the thing it will hit next (OB or rail), then by your more common definitions:

- that's inside English when hitting the OB, but not when hitting the rail (even though in both cases it's hit the same way relative to the ball or rail)

- that's reverse English when hitting the rail, but not when hitting the OB (even though in both cases the CB is slowed)

By my preferred definitions it's inside and reverse English in both cases - defined by how the CB spins relative to, and how it reacts in contact with,
the surface it hits - not by whether that happens to be a ball or a rail.

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett said:

In the October 2011 Billiards Digest I asked readers to describe shots with all the possible combinations of spin relative to the ball and cushion along with possible positions where each particular combination of spin was best. The ball side spins were inside/outside/center, plus follow/draw/stun and for the cushion it was running/reverse. (I suppose neutral would have been a third cushion possibility.) No one submitted a list in spite of the offer of a prize.

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Aren't follow, draw and stun/neutral all possibilities whether hitting an OB or a rail?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

I think that's how it's most often used, but is it the way that causes least confusion?

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Yes, because the definitions are "standard."

Patrick Johnson said:

After all, the question keeps coming up.

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That's why I created the english terminology resource page. And I'll keep linking to it until the topic stops coming up.

Pat, I'm honestly a little surprised with your take on this topic. You are usually solidly "mainstream" and sometimes "insistent" concerning standard pool terminology.

Regards,
Dave

ChrisinNC said:

Whatever works for you, but that sounds awfully complicated.

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That's because I contrasted both kinds of definitions. Here's just my definition:

Inside/reversing spin = spin that tends to reduce CB speed when it rubs against a ball or rail.
Outside/running spin = spin that tends to increase CB speed when it rubs against a ball or rail.

How simple is that?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

I think that's how it's most often used, but is it the way that causes least confusion? After all, the question keeps coming up.

To be most clear, assume you're spinning the CB with the stick (not with contact-induced spin from the OB):

If you hit the CB on the side closest to the thing it will hit next (OB or rail), then by your more common definitions:

- that's inside English when hitting the OB, but not when hitting the rail (even though in both cases it's hit the same way relative to the ball or rail)

- that's reverse English when hitting the rail, but not when hitting the OB (even though in both cases the CB is slowed)

By my preferred definitions it's inside and reverse English in both cases - defined by how the CB spins relative to, and how it reacts in contact with,
the surface it hits - not by whether that happens to be a ball or a rail.

pj
chgo

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Been playing 40yrs and have never heard it explained like what you just said. If it works for you fine but that would confuse me no end. Also, say i'm cutting a ball lying close to the rail. If i use high inside to pocket the ball then when cueball hits the rail its running forward not dying. So on this particular shot its inside and running. Your explanation makes little sense to me.

dr_dave said:

...the definitions [on my website] are "standard."

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Maybe... I agree they're at least more commonly used.

You are usually solidly "mainstream" and sometimes "insistent" concerning standard pool terminology.

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I may even have "insisted" on the mainstream usage of these same terms in the past (don't know). But I think these terms are more confusing than most mainstream terminology.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

That's because I contrasted both kinds of definitions. Here's just my definition:

Inside/reversing spin = spin that tends to reduce CB speed when it rubs against a ball or rail.
Outside/running spin = spin that tends to increase CB speed when it rubs against a ball or rail.

How simple is that?

pj
chgo

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We’ve gone down this path before. Since the terms outside/inside are standard for cueball to object ball interaction, then saying “outside/running” as if they're synonymous would be terribly confusing. Outside (cueball spin wrt object ball) can be running or reverse on the cushion.

Maybe if you’re looking at kicking a rail, say up table to the short rail up the center string, inside or outside english to describe the spin wont make any sense.

Freddie

garczar said:

...say i'm cutting a ball lying close to the rail. If i use high inside to pocket the ball then when cueball hits the rail its running forward not dying. So on this particular shot its inside and running. Your explanation makes little sense to me.

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By my definition it's inside/reversing on the OB and outside/running on the rail.

pj
chgo

Cornerman said:

We’ve gone down this path before. Since the terms outside/inside are standard for cueball to object ball interaction, then saying “outside/running” as if they're synonymous would be terribly confusing. Outside (cueball spin wrt object ball) can be running or reverse on the cushion.

Freddie

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I think more confusion comes from insisting that inside/outside can only be used to describe ball/ball interactions and reverse/running can only be used to describe ball/rail interactions - even though the same physical events occur with both.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

I think more confusion comes from insisting that inside/outside can only be used to describe ball/ball interactions and reverse/running can only be used to describe ball/rail interactions - even though the same physical events occur with both.

pj
chgo

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I think you’re confusing “interaction” with “relative tip postion.” Inside and outisde describe the tip positon. Interaction is described with running and reverse/check.

If you want to only describe interaction, then in your conversations maybe you only want to use running and reverse/check and drop inside/outside. Thats already actually done today when talking about interaction. Especially when discussing TOI.

In nearly every case, you only care about one object ball for “interaction,” and inside/outside is discussing the cuetip position, not cueball/object ball intersction. If it’s important to discuss the interaction, the norm is to use the word “check” and sometimes “running.”

In cushion intrraction, the outside english could be running or reverse/check on the same shot.

Freddie

Cornerman said:

I think you’re confusing “interaction” with “relative tip postion.” Inside and outisde describe the tip positon. Interaction is described with running and reverse/check.

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I think that confuses the action (direction of rubbing spin compared to CB direction) with how it's (usually) made to happen (tip position). IMO, it would be at least as clear, and more realistic/educational, to describe the actions/interactions consistently regardless of ball or rail collision.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

By my definition it's inside/reversing on the OB and outside/running on the rail.

pj
chgo

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Its inside on both. If the spin on the cueball is same as its direction its running/natural. Hey, i'd like to call my car battery a "lawnchair". Well,yeah, i could do that but it doesn't make it correct. Never heard ONE player/teacher in 40yrs of playing describe these situations like this. Inside is towards your target and outside is away from it. Running is same spin as the direction and reverse is the opposite. I find your description confusing and kinda bizarre.

garczar said:

Its inside on both. If the spin on the cueball is same as its direction its running/natural. Hey, i'd like to call my car battery a "lawnchair". Well,yeah, i could do that but it doesn't make it correct. Never heard ONE player/teacher in 40yrs of playing describe these situations like this. Inside is towards your target and outside is away from it. Running is same spin as the direction and reverse is the opposite. I find your description confusing and kinda bizarre.

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Have to agree with you here. It seems some choose the game to be more like a Rubik's cube rather than a game of angles, triangles, and demeanor while at the table. It's as difficult as you make it but isn't everything?

Patrick Johnson said:

That's because I contrasted both kinds of definitions. Here's just my definition:

Inside/reversing spin = spin that tends to reduce CB speed when it rubs against a ball or rail.
Outside/running spin = spin that tends to increase CB speed when it rubs against a ball or rail.

How simple is that?

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Not simple at all, considering you said earlier in the post that "inside english usually reduces throw". And I know for a fact that you know that outside english can substantially increase the amount of throw on some shots, depending the degree of spin.

jsp said:

Not simple at all, considering you said earlier in the post that "inside english usually reduces throw". And I know for a fact that you know that outside english can substantially increase the amount of throw on some shots, depending the degree of spin.

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Assuming you're talking about OB throw, I haven't (intentionally) said anything about that in this thread. Can you show me where so I can correct it?

pj
chgo

There is one argument for the "standard" definitions of inside/outside and running/reverse that hasn't been made - and I think it's the most convincing argument: most players think of these things the way they most clearly experience them - where they hit the CB (inside/outside vs. the cut angle) and where the effects of spin are most visible (running/reverse against a rail).

I think that's unfortunate because it doesn't reflect the more subtle physical similarities - but I accept I'm probably fighting a losing battle.

pj <- not the first time
chgo

garczar said:

Its inside on both.

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If you hit the CB directly into the rail with running spin, would you hit it on the side toward the rail or away from it?

If the spin on the cueball is same as its direction its running/natural.

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So outside spin when hitting an OB is running/natural? Or does this definition only pertain to hitting a rail?

pj
chgo

If you want an appropriate answer to a pool question, ask a pool player, not a "scientist".

Call it what you want, but if I tried to describe what english to use when hitting into a rail on a kick shot by using inside/outside instead of running/reverse or right/left, I wouldn't be surprised if I got a blank stare in return. They are all ways to describe cue ball spin, but with different context:

Inside/outside is spin relative to the angle between the cue ball prior to contact with the object ball and the object ball post-contact: inside meaning that the side of the cue ball on the inside of that angle is moving faster, and outside meaning the opposite.

Running/reverse (or check) describes the spin based on the effect it will have on the cue ball upon contacting the rail. Running english speeds up the cue ball, and reverse/check slows it down. While it's true that you can get a little bit of speed up or slow down off an object ball depending on the english on the cue ball, I would still find it weird of someone described running/reverse english in terms of the contact with the object ball.

Finally, right/left simply describe where the cue tip contacts the cue ball without implying any particular intent.

To get back to the original discussion, I think that there are a number of factors contributing to the OPs choice of using inside follow to go 3-4 rails back up table instead of playing with outside draw to go 2-3 rails: which side of the next ball he needs to be on, proximity of the CB path to the pockets, intervening balls, coming into/across the position zone, convergence of the CB off 3 rails, etc. Sometimes it's the best shot, sometimes it's not, but it's definitely something that you want to have in your arsenal when the right situation comes up.

I haven't done it in a while, but I used to have a practice partner that would occasionally play games with me where we committed to playing without using outside or without inside so we could work on one or the other. We did a similar thing with follow and draw. Of the 4 variations, I think that the one where we only allowed inside or center (no restriction on follow/draw...can you imagine?) was the most beneficial. Being able to confidently pocket balls while using inside english opens up a lot of options.