APA Opinions

Cue Freak said:

Does anyone else here feel that APA should change up their format a little? The only thing I would want changed would be to call pocket. It frustrates me to see new players just bangin around trying to get lucky, like they don't care. Around here most new players are brought on a team to lose so that they can have a low SL player. Anyone else feel the same? (or differently for that matter)

Thanks

Matt

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I don't think not having call pocket makes a lot of difference personally. It is frustrating when somebody beats you due to slop, but that really is rare. I just think the APA is what it is, a league designed to appeal to as many players as possible. The purity of the game may be sacrificed somewhat as a result, but the APA and the majority of it's players just aren't concerned about that. I don't play now only because nobody wants a 6 and I don't want to be a captain on my own, but when I played I never worried too much about it's format. It was just a night out.

Find out if there is a Masters Division in your area. No more slop, keeping score, handicapping, waiting an hour for 2s to win two games, etc. If there isn't, start one.

One of many reasons I only play under BCA rules.

I agree with Cats. The APA is setup for masses. The APA has its place in pool to generate enthusiasm to play, and some player development to the sport. But the APA, unintentionally I think, promotes weak play and slow development.

I wish they would adopt the "open table after the break" rule, because I know I'd run out considerably more often. It emphasizes the separation between runout players and lesser players, which I think is why the APA wouldn't ever do it, since they feel strongly about "equalizing" matches between different skill levels.

-Andrew

I hate the APA. I would do away with it all together.

I agree that it should probably be call pocket, but I doubt it really matters that much. If a player's is bangin' 'em around, he's going to miss a lot more shots that he might have made than ones he lucks in. He'll luck in some hitting hard, but not enough to make a difference. Come to think of it, giving him a few luck balls might be enough to keep him banging the balls. That should make it easier for you to win!

I know the APA is sick of hearing about handicaps, and I'm the last one to complain about anything. However, I completely agree that they need to change something about how they handle the first game for new players coming in. I saw a player bumped from an SL4 to an SL6 after winning his first match. (He was decent, but that's it.) On the other extreme, we had a new player come in and lose his first game. They dropped him to an SL3, which was fine. However, it got kind of embarrassing when he won eleven straight matches (and was 2nd in the Top Gun standings) and he was still playing as an SL3! Maybe newer players should stay at their starting skill level until they have a more meaningfull history. Tom.

catscradle said:

I just think the APA is what it is, a league designed to appeal to as many players as possible.

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As well put as I've read.

People who don't want to play APA don't have to.

APA Masters is based on the format for the US Amateur championships. There are no handicaps. Each team can have up to 4 players, 3 will play on league night. Players match up with races to 7, a combination of 8-ball and 9-ball. 9-ball is basically Texas Express, with some APA rules mixed in, while 8-ball is traditional APA rules. You play a maximum of 5 8-ball games and 8 9-ball games. First player to 7 wins the set. At the end of the 3rd set, tally the games won, and the team with the most games won wins the match. No counting innings, no counting balls, no marking defensive shots, just games. It's a great format - I thoroughly enjoy it.

-djb

Two things I would change.

1) I think the scorekeeping procedures should be explained more concisely. There is way too much confusion over what an inning actually is and how they carry over into the next matches. Not just that, but writing in B&R or 8B scr on the scoresheet in the inning box is poorly explained.


2) I would like to see unintentional scratches counted. Not neccessarily all fouls, but I think unintentional scratches shorten the inning count and make the game score like it was played by a better player. This is something that I think would help the lower handicaps be more accurate.

Personally, I would rather play call pocket. However, not having to call a pocket and having to mark the eight seems to me to be designed to avoid a potentially ugly argument in a big match among drinking folks who don't know each other really well, so I can live with it.

I'm with Andrew. If they had to change one rule, I'd prefer it be 'open after the break.'

I'd also like to see them adopt a rule that says if you call a safe you can pocket a ball and not have to keep shooting. That comes in handy sometimes.

I'd also like to see them shorten the nights to four matches instead of five. I know a lot of nights would be 2-2 ties but for those who have to work in the morning, it'd be worth it.

The APA, as imperfect as it is, is a great place for a novice to begin competing. Everyone starts out as a novice and many would still be a novice or casual player if it were not for APA leagues being available. They certainly try to help even out the playing field, so all can compete.

Any organization will have handicapping problems, but most of the problems are not caused by the system, it's usually people trying to beat the system.

GH

There is a reason the APA is the largest and fastest growing league...

Cue Freak said:

Does anyone else here feel that APA should change up their format a little? The only thing I would want changed would be to call pocket. It frustrates me to see new players just bangin around trying to get lucky, like they don't care. Around here most new players are brought on a team to lose so that they can have a low SL player. Anyone else feel the same? (or differently for that matter)

Thanks

Matt

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Let me start by saying I feel your pain ! but I as a long time APA player (1983) fully understand the reason for this rule ! It is why new and innexperienced players are willing to try the league since it gives them a chance to compete against more experienced players!

As a Team Captain I hear all the time when trying to recruit new players the same objection... " I am not good enough to play on a team!"...

Let's be honest here, We are posting as pool players and pool lovers, all of the time on here and other sites post on ... "Why aren't Pro's being recognized?"... or ..."Why doesn't Pool get the respect that other sports recieve?"... or Why don't more people play pool? etcetera !!!!! Well folks the APA is the one league that can and does entice interest in pool playing for new shooters and innexperienced shooters simply because it gives them an opportunity to play and perhaps not be embarrassed by some gun slinger running out 5-0 on them !

Now lets also be honest, at least those that do play APA!!! and admit that a good player (we will for this point say an APA SL # 5 - 7 in 8 ball) For the most part never plays real slop pool these players are the folks on here that are doing drills and buying books and trying to perfect their games ! Does it ever happen ? Of course we all get a little luck from the pool Gods here and there! The only difference in APA is that it counts! So yeah the rules are bent a bit for the benefit of new players but New Players are what we all REALLY ALL WANT TO HELP GROW THIS SPORT! and those new players in a year or so are the same players lamenting on AZ about how we need to change the rules !!! LOL! but they would not be here if they had not decided to take the chance and play! They also would not have met many great folks and found new skills as well as friends along the way !

MrLucky said:

Let me start by saying I feel your pain ! but I as a long time APA player (1983) fully understand the reason for this rule ! It is why new and innexperienced players are willing to try the league since it gives them a chance to compete against more experienced players!

As a Team Captain I hear all the time when trying to recruit new players the same objection... " I am not good enough to play on a team!"...

Let's be honest here, We are posting as pool players and pool lovers, all of the time on here and other sites post on ... "Why aren't Pro's being recognized?"... or ..."Why doesn't Pool get the respect that other sports recieve?"... or Why don't more people play pool? etcetera !!!!! Well folks the APA is the one league that can and does entice interest in pool playing for new shooters and innexperienced shooters simply because it gives them an opportunity to play and perhaps not be embarrassed by some gun slinger running out 5-0 on them !

Now lets also be honest, at least those that do play APA!!! and admit that a good player (we will for this point say an APA SL # 5 - 7 in 8 ball) For the most part never plays real slop pool these players are the folks on here that are doing drills and buying books and trying to perfect their games ! Does it ever happen ? Of course we all get a little luck from the pool Gods here and there! The only difference in APA is that it counts! So yeah the rules are bent a bit for the benefit of new players but New Players are what we all REALLY ALL WANT TO HELP GROW THIS SPORT! and those new players in a year or so are the same players lamenting on AZ about how we need to change the rules !!! LOL! but they would not be here if they had not decided to take the chance and play! They also would not have met many great folks and found new skills as well as friends along the way !

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Very nice post, Mr. Lucky. APA designed a format that gives players of all abilities a chance to win a match. Taking away slop or adding open after the break just decreases a weaker player's chances of winning. Why mess with something that works?

And I've never really understood why people have this tremendous issue with slop pool for games of 8 Ball, but feel it's a necessary component in 9 Ball. Sure, they are different games, and I've played both many times, but I've lost more 9 ball matches due to slop pool than 8 Ball by a long shot.

9 Ball is a more perfect game. Balls are to be made in order 1-9. But, a guy can slop a ball in and it's perfectly acceptable. I don't get it. The chances of losing a game in 9 Ball due to a slop shot are much better than 8 Ball, so I really see nothing wrong with APA's current policy regarding slop.

The only issue I have w/slop in APA 8-Ball as a SL7 is that I have lost track of how many times I put someone in jail and then they still manage to slop a ball in and then proceed to steal the game. Personally, I much prefer the called shot aspect of some of the other leagues simply because it makes my safety play more effective. That said, I wouldn't want APA to change the rule because it's already tough enough on the lower SL players (witness the number of people playing in the SL 2-3 tier in Vegas).

I know what Endy's talking about. I'm a 7 and I would much rather play a 5 than a 3. I know I'll beat the 5. But against the 3... 2 losses can happen to anyone on a bad day, the balls could lay funny and I'm forced to take the clustered ones, the 8 could be hanging in a pocket right in front of one of my balls, I could drop the 8 early (happens to the best of us), the 3 could slam the balls on the break and sink the 8, and the 3 could really just be a 4 who occasionally gets out in 2 innings.

With all that said, I was super upset and hated the handicapping at first, but now I think it's the fairest system, certainly better than our local Valley league's system (which I also play).

I think the bar-rule of 'take whatever drops on the breaks' is interesting. I hate it when it screws me, and logically it should screw a weak player too, but it really is an equalizer because the better player will breaking more, and occasionally won't be able to shoot what he wants.

So I'm in favor of helping out the weaker player but I also agree that this rule + the slop teaches them bad pool and lazy habits. They SHOULD learn not to hit at warp speed and how to make the right choice after the break.

If I could change one rule it would probably be the 8-on-the-break-wins rule. That's not only unfair and gives a stupid reward for something that was mostly luck, it doesn't help the weaker player, it may even favor the stronger player because that's the person who will be breaking more, and that's the person with the skills and knowledge and solid break who knows to try to hit the 2nd ball on the rack etc. I think it leaves the lesser player with the wrong impression, that pool is about luck.

APA LO: The reasoning about slop being allowed in 9 ball is that when there's only 1 ball on the table to legally shoot and several potential blockers, the odds of getting hooked are very high. So players are constantly forced to kick (compared to 8 ball). The idea is that if you kick a ball and luck it into a pocket, you should get rewarded. Asking the player to call the kick is too demanding, most of us are just happy to hit it. Also if you accidentally sink a kicked ball without calling the pocket correctly, you directly helped your opponent, you essentially made one his balls for him. So it wouldn't seem fair if you make a tough kick and sink a ball, but he gets to step up the table with 1 less ball to run.

I find it doesn't affect 8 ball much so I can live with it not being changed, but occasionally it's stolen some matches from me, the most recent time in a best of the best event which really steamed me.

Clarification

Let's clear up something right now:

I have played in the APA.
I have played in the VNEA.
I have played in the BCA.

All 3 leagues encourage new players to join a team. In the APA, I played round robin. In the VNEA, I played round robin. In the BCA, I played both round robin and match play.

With the formation of master leagues or advanced leagues, it puts like players with like players, and usually noone is getting mowed down by someone that is that much over their handicap. It is a learning experience for any new player, no matter what league they are a part of.

All 3 promote pool. The last 2 just do it better.

What makes the APA kind of a joke is the rating system they use for player averages. It is the least definitive of the 3, which in turn causes bigger ranges of players within 1 rating. Since the handicapping is done from the player's averages, the lesser players are not actually getting spotted what they should get. It also causes more sandbagging. It is not hard to figure out that the APA was formed by Poolplayers, and not mathematicians. And then to offset these built in problems, they added the '23' rule, which caused more problems (for teams). And to top it all off, they think all their
'formulas' are top secret. Let's just say the APA deserves the annual Kevin Troudeau award for leagues.