Style or distinctive advantage?

Don't forget that snooker demands more accuracy than other games, too. You don't really want to start having to correct for throw very much. It's hard enough as it is. I use center ball a lot more playing snooker and tend to not be so concerned about shape as making the ball. Unless you are playing someone really good, it's easier to play safe because distance is such a big factor.

Actually, playing alot of pool (I am guessing most people on this forum know how to play..) and I mean putting in alot of hours and experimenting on your own will put you on the right path. I have the actual P&B mag to which this artical came from and the overall theme was to just play alot of pool. Obviously good practice, not just hitting balls for the fun of it is the key. There were no real secrets reveled in the P & B Magizine artical, because, there are no secrets to be reveled! It seems that alot of people are looking for that magical gimmick to elevate their game. Good practice is the key. Everyone has their own style for aiming and pocketing balls. Find yours.

lewdo26 said:

My question is: Does using outside english on cutshots bring an an advantage or is it simply a matter of style? I am talking about english being used to pocket balls not for positional purposes.

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Occasionally throwing a ball into the pocket could be an advantage, but it would still be more for position purposes. If you used outside english on every cutshot, why do you think that would give you an advantage on accuracy? Do you think it might be more of a disadvantage in the long run?
EVERY shot requires position strategy with a purpose in mind. Even if you made the shot using outside english, what good is it going to do if it just runs you into the middle of a cluster that you need to be avoiding.

Earl, Efren, Busta, can do whatever they want with the CB. Most amateurs overuse and use waaaaaay too extreme english on most shots. That's why they suck. One of the first books I ever bought was Willie Mosconi's book when I was a teenager and it's served me well when he said that 80% of all shots can be played with center ball. That was over 40 years ago and it still holds true.

I think a much better way to practice is to use the vertical center for follow, center, and draw and get position on your next shot by focusing on speed and angles. If you use english, you'll get where you need to go with 1/2 of a tip from center, and that's it.

drivermaker said:

Occasionally throwing a ball into the pocket could be an advantage, but it would still be more for position purposes. If you used outside english on every cutshot, why do you think that would give you an advantage on accuracy? Do you think it might be more of a disadvantage in the long run?

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I think it's a disadvanttage in the long run...I am currently trying to revive my game after a long (years) break, and at the same time move from the Barbox to big tables. When I first started playing, as a child-before I even thought about position, I figured out that it was easier for me to make difficult cut shots with low-outside english and practiced that for hours on end. When I was playing regularly, I was able to break this habit. Now that I'm picking it up again, I have found that making those shots any other way is difficult for me.

EVERY shot requires position strategy with a purpose in mind. Even if you made the shot using outside english, what good is it going to do if it just runs you into the middle of a cluster that you need to be avoiding.

Earl, Efren, Busta, can do whatever they want with the CB. Most amateurs overuse and use waaaaaay too extreme english on most shots. That's why they suck. One of the first books I ever bought was Willie Mosconi's book when I was a teenager and it's served me well when he said that 80% of all shots can be played with center ball. That was over 40 years ago and it still holds true.

I think a much better way to practice is to use the vertical center for follow, center, and draw and get position on your next shot by focusing on speed and angles. If you use english, you'll get where you need to go with 1/2 of a tip from center, and that's it.

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I agree with this completely. Usually, when I find myself in a slump, it's because I've grown too comfortable with English and have started using it too much. I limit myself to use speed control, top and bottom and usually it gets me back on track within a few practice sessions. I also think if you plan your runouts to use angles properly instead of relying on sidespin, they are much, much easier to execute. That being said, you still need to practice English for the critical shots that will need English.

Cheers,
Regas

lewdo26 said:

But it seems to me, and that I think is what Earl Strickland said in Bob Jewett's suggested article, that (all things being equal) pros often "spin balls in" (use outside english for cut shots) even though it isn't strictly necessary for positional purposes.

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Maybe the best thing to do is not take a broad statement made by Earl and then over analyze it into something that isn't really pertinent. And for all you know, the way the media is, it could have been misquoted.

I dont think he was misquoted. The secret style of CJ Wiley that he would not release there I have read in another magazine and he spins every ball in as well. Your idea that it may not be great for posistion is true, therefore not every single shot is done with it, but for the people who shoot cuts with outside english as a generally consisten thing it improves their aim on those shots. Earl actually does it if you watch him, CJ did, Bustamente does, Efren does, but the thing you have to understand is these guys actually play the shape to suit that stroke too. Watching the 15 year old phenom Chia Ching Wu I noticed he does it alot too, but he actually plays shape that compliments it, he shoot most shots with outside english but he plays the angle onto the shots so that the english is actually advantageous. I myself spin most balls in, but my shape play has not really been aimed at supporting it, I learned alot from watching that 15 year old and will attempt to actually play the table like he does more with thought to where the cueball should be to play the 3rd ball so that outside english is used.

I think part of the reason it works so well is the fact that on any table you are going to have balls near the rails and use those rails. Most pro's will opt for the cut angle that uses outside english to get shape on balls. The pro's will use the rails to get shape on most every shot, they dont like the straight in shot unless it is a stop shot for shape, the outside english tends to be alot easier to control then the inside english, thats why when a person pounds a shot in with top inside english to come around 3 rails the crowd is always impressed, it is not easy. Any pro can play the inside english if they need it, but they tend to gravitate towards using the outside english and throwing the balls in with it, it just feels natural and using the inside english is the unatural shot that requires alot more thought and aiming. It is kind of hard to explain if a person does not do it, I would not think someone shooting without outside english naturally should be taught it, I think it is one of those things you do or you dont naturally. I would agree with Earl though, most pro's will play with alot more outside english and spin the balls in then the opposite.

Be interested in hearing Keith's opinion on it all. He has a very natural game and although his stroke is so fast I can not remember what he does I would think he probably spins the balls in alot of the time.

I like to use english in most shots because when I roll cb from the right way, speed control is easier. I want to say more but I just cant because im from finland. I cant speak english.

lewdo26 said:

Well, drivermaker, the only reason I am emphasizing Earl's comment is because I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Now Celtic seems to agree with me. Pros tend to use outside english on cutshots not purely to get shape. Hell, I've seen pros spin the 9 ball in on shots that were perfectly makeable with a center hit.
Likewise, I've observed with my own eyes that older players tend to do that kind of thing much less. Celtic makes a very, very good point however. The reason why the use of outside english on most cutshots do not make the pros run out of line is because they are already considering spinning the next ball in on their previous shots. If you cut balls mostly with a center hit you would play position a little bit differently. That's why my argument is that the exagerated use of outside on cutshots today reflect a change in the style of the game and how it's played over time, not necessarily a distinctive advantage.

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I know they're doing it also. Last week when they were showing Efren playing Corey in the Open with the new CB that has all of those marks on it, you could see everyone of Efren's shots spinning with a good bit of english, even on short shots with little force and I've seen it in person also. It's more of an individuals style in my opinion.

My take on your original question was if it's an advantage to spin it with outside english to throw balls in for almost ALL cuts and EVERYONE, not just Earl or Efren. What I was trying to get across is "no" not for the amateur. Outside spin or no spin, how many amateurs do you think are planning 3 balls ahead for the proper angle on that ball? My guess is very few can see that far ahead and plan it. Even amongst the pro's, they don't all use exagerrated spin on every shot. Some do, but many don't. Although I may have given you the impression that I personally use mostly center, that's not exactly the case. I can spin the shit out of it and zing the CB all over the table and still run racks whether it's outside or inside, outside being easier to judge and control for most players. But in the long haul, my pocketing percentage goes downhill some because you just don't always judge the throw right and end up missing shots that you shouldn't. I'm still not sure what you were driving at in your original post and if I even understood it correctly.

The Pros Absolutely Use More Spin

lewdo26 said:

Pros tend to use outside english on cutshots not purely to get shape. Hell, I've seen pros spin the 9 ball in on shots that were perfectly makeable with a center hit.

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To "relieve" the cut as Hal Houle might say. Or "helping english" as Buddy Hall might say. Or "to make sure it doesn't skid" as I might say.

That being said, today's games like 9-ball have an element of position play that yesterday's straight pool and one pocket games do not have in ambundance. Therefore, english-influenced position play is a must. I find it funny how people drum on that pros stay in the center. That is so false, and anyone who's actually watched the players can't possibly agree to it. They use more english than any of us amateurs would dream of using.

They can do it cuz they're pros, but they are also pros cuz they can do it. IMO, if you're going to maximize your playiung potential, you must be able to use a ton of english as well as use centerball at any time given the shot at hand.

Fred

It seems to me that if an object ball is near a rail and I need to cut it in with a sharp cut, hitting it with center or inside English will throw the ball into the rail and the ball will not make the pocket. But if I use extreme outside English, I am able to make these shots more often and keep the object ball from hitting the rail.

I've noticed that other players don't do this and will always miss these shots. But I will many times make these shots, so to me it is an advantage.

I will also use inside English on some OB frozen to the rail shots and especially when the OB is a hair away from the rail. It seems I am more likely to make these shots than when I use center or outside English.

And then there is this shot...
(Shoot medium with extreme left. This makes the cue ball deflect out away from the rail, but the left English makes the cue ball return to and hug the rail, making the ball.)

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

START(
%Ag7C9%PN9D1%eA3a3%_e9D0%`V8D5%aO6D1

)END

Well, Lewdo, you've already gotten a lot of good answers. Count me among those more inclined to sing the praises of outside english on many cut shots. Nonetheless, those that say that english shouldn't be overused are giving you good advice.

In techincal terms, outside english can be used to counteract the effect of collision induced throw (or, as some put it, to overcome the friction), ensuring that the object ball travels along the path defined by the line connecting the centers of the cue ball and object ball on impact. As many top players know exactly how much english it takes at the various speeds to accomplish this, the aim remains quite simple.

An unmentioned (I think) advantage of using outside english on cut shots is that greater cue ball length off the first rail hit can be obtained for a given speed of stroke, enabling you to hit the object ball a little softer and still achieve the shape. The reduction in speed makes the pockets play a little looser.

When deciding whether to use outside english on cut shots, it's all about the tradeoff. Do the advantages gained by reducing collision-induced throw and enabling you to often hit the object ball a little softer outweigh disadvantages associated with the fact that english brings a few variables into play that can complicate pocketing? In the end, it's a decision every player must make for himself/herself from shot to shot and game to game.

Read the whole thread, Lewdo, there's a lot of good advice in it.

lewdo26 said:

Bob Jewett's suggested article about aiming 'secrets' of pros brought back a question I've had for some time. You will notice that younger players in the article mentioned english much more than older pros. Earl Strickland even says pros today are always spinning balls in. Mizerak on the other hand, said he doesn't have any special tricks for cut shots.

My question is: Does using outside english on cutshots bring an an advantage or is it simply a matter of style? I am talking about english being used to pocket balls not for positional purposes. I've heard the answer that outside english compensates for throw that would naturally creep into cut shots. But that sounds unconvincing since when using english one has to compensate for deflection!

I can also think of snooker... why do snooker players use less english than pool players? I tend to favor the answer that the use of english is mostly a matter of style but I'd like to hear the opinion of others in the forum.

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in my opinion if you have a cut shot it is much easier to make it using outside english depending on the degree of the cut . if the cut is to the point that the cue ball will hit the other side of the rail no matter how hard or soft you hit it, then no english is better . but if the cut is to where you can or must hold or draw a little, its easier to hold your cue ball from getting away from you and its will not go very far. ofcourse this all depends on the angle.if you are almost straight in or a little more angle then it may not matter much. holding your cue ball the correct way would be to use a little outside other wise you might throw it into the rail and wobble it.unless you roll it then its easier to controll without english. but if you hold it, or draw it a little and use no english, its much harder to feel the shot and you are prone to miss usually undercutting it thus wobbling the ball . same in banks dont think there are any top bank players thet dont use side english to guide ball in.it is much easier to controll cue ball. even on seemingly straight in banks its easier to feel the shot. now snooker balls are a different story the size and the weight , the balls tend to squirt or deflect more. especially if you use american cues 13mil. tips . well thats my two cents worth even know ive been out of circulation for a while i still remember a little. well sorry for my bad typing i am a hunt and peck typer so i need to type fast and caps and punctuations just slow me down

lewdo26 said:

Bob Jewett's suggested article about aiming 'secrets' of pros brought back a question I've had for some time. You will notice that younger players in the article mentioned english much more than older pros. Earl Strickland even says pros today are always spinning balls in. Mizerak on the other hand, said he doesn't have any special tricks for cut shots.

My question is: Does using outside english on cutshots bring an an advantage or is it simply a matter of style? I am talking about english being used to pocket balls not for positional purposes. I've heard the answer that outside english compensates for throw that would naturally creep into cut shots. But that sounds unconvincing since when using english one has to compensate for deflection!

I can also think of snooker... why do snooker players use less english than pool players? I tend to favor the answer that the use of english is mostly a matter of style but I'd like to hear the opinion of others in the forum.

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ok many of you guys do not know me but i used to play faily good in my opinion im going to try to srir up some controversy. i didnt read any of the posts prior to writing the last one so here goes . some say that it is not nesassary to use inside english on cut shots , i think is wrong. i think it is very nesassary . i dont think there are any top players that dont do it. and i mean really top players eferen earl johnny and many others. i will go a step further i dont think you can be a top top player without doing this or understanding why it is a must. now we are talking about using below center or bottom outside english. it does not apply to top english unless you are close to to the shot. but im talking about cue ball long shot for the cash or pressure. for instance cue ball behind the line three inches to the left of spot object ball half in to an inch of rail around second diamond so ruffly twe feet from hole. not to many if ant top players would roll this ball for fear of roll off they will use bottom left to some degree . and they do that not because there is another option that is easier. they do it be cause it is the easiest way to make it with cue ball control. if there was an easier way they would do that but there isnt. or why would they all consistantly shoot it that way when on 9 ball for all the cash right . plus i also think the top top players play better that the old timersspecificaly efren. i guess thats another post. would love to hear all agreements and disagreements on why im wrong or right. just a hasbeens opinion based on to much time on pool tables instead of school lol mark

Holy smokes! Welcome to the board Mark. I remember watching you play on a bar box when I was a junior in Vegas at the BCA or VNEA 8-ball championships (this would have been around 1993 or so when the lions den was fairly new and the Sahara had a curtousy bus to it). Only time I ever got to see you play unfortunately, the memory is hazy and I was such a noob in this game back then. I am one that remembers you though, you were a cool guy to all us young beginners back then. I am sure if we played for cash it would still be me paying for lessons, you were a hell of a strong natural player from what I remember and that never truely goes away, look at Sigel comming back and winning a event after years.

I am not sure if it is from watching the top players in Calgary like Bernie Mikkelsen, Dave Martin, ect... back then but for some reason I always spun the balls in like the pro's (with vastly less accuracy mind you). There is a definate feel to it, I sometimes liken it to bowling, it is easier to throw a ball at an angle with spin to hit the pocket, the one time I heard CJ talking about it be said accuracy goes up when you use outside spin and aim to "just" undercut the ball and let the english spin it in. In effect you are able to hit the object ball as full as possible doing this and get less cueball travel after the contact, on the other hand if one was to use center ball you get a slightly thinner hit on the object ball and more cueball movement, and the extreme of using inside english makes the hit requirement even thinner and therefore the cueball keeps even more of it's movement. The combination of the thicker object ball hit being a more accurate shot then thinner, combined with the reduced travel of the cueball after contact are two huge subconsious things that I can think of that make me naturally play the bottom lefy on your example shot.

Very cool to see ya post here man, another pro in our midst.

mark tadd said:

ok many of you guys do not know me but i used to play faily good

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Assuming you are THE Mark Tadd, this surely represents the single greatest understatement in the history of this forum. As many of us on the forum know, your play was on a par with the game's greats when you were playing your best. I've seen you play and even socialized with you once, though I doubt you'd remember me. Tommy Kennedy, Tony Robles and I had lunch with you at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas during the World 8-ball championships week in what I believe to have been 1997.

Mark, I think it's great that you're posting on this forum, sharing your vast knowledge of pool with all of us.