veneer rings

whammo57 · Sep 21, 2014

I just found out that my favorite source of veneer rings will not be making them until they obtain new tooling. So I decided to make them myself on my Cuemonster CNC.

I cut a stack of 5 veneers. The Cuemonster doesn't have enough Y axis travel to cut the OD on the large ring. So I off set the Y axis and cut half the large ring and then plunge the tool into the piece and do an optional stop. I shut off the spindle and turn the piece 180 deg and press cycle start to finish the ring. The small rings are no problem.

Russell Cues · Sep 21, 2014

Nice. Necessity is the mother of invention.

billiardbum · Sep 22, 2014

whammo57 said:
I just found out that my favorite source of veneer rings will not be making them until they obtain new tooling. So I decided to make them myself on my Cuemonster CNC.

I cut a stack of 5 veneers. The Cuemonster doesn't have enough Y axis travel to cut the OD on the large ring. So I off set the Y axis and cut half the large ring and then plunge the tool into the piece and do an optional stop. I shut off the spindle and turn the piece 180 deg and press cycle start to finish the ring. The small rings are no problem.

Kim, I just started this process as well. You should have 1.4 inches of travel on the machine and I cut mine 1.3 on OD of largest ring. No reason to go any larger.

Jim

whammo57 · Sep 22, 2014

My cuemonster has 1.29 in of travel in the Y axis...

Kim

Thomas Wayne · Sep 22, 2014

whammo57 said:
My cuemonster has 1.29 in of travel in the Y axis...

Kim

How odd. I can't imagine even designing a CNC machine with such limitations, let alone actually building an entire a business around one. The cost to increase axis travel is just SO tiny compared to the rest of a machine. My 4-axis mill has 32" x 16" capacity, my 3-axis "parts generator" has an 8+" x 22" work envelope, and my gang-tool lathe has 32" x 18.5" travels.

Must suck to have to lay out inlay parts on such narrow widths and come up with work-arounds for the simplest of operations, such as your veneer rings. When I'm cutting out Silver joint rings I generally use sheet stock 6" wide x 12" long... so I can actually get something else done in the shop while those are being machined. If I was limited to 1.29" travel on ANY axis I think I'd start looking for something else to do with my life.

TW

whammo57 · Sep 22, 2014

Thomas Wayne said:
How odd. I can't imagine even designing a CNC machine with such limitations, let alone actually building an entire a business around one. The cost to increase axis travel is just SO tiny compared to the rest of a machine. My 4-axis mill has 32" x 16" capacity, my 3-axis "parts generator" has an 8+" x 22" work envelope, and my gang-tool lathe has 32" x 18.5" travels.

Must suck to have to lay out inlay parts on such narrow widths and come up with work-arounds for the simplest of operations, such as your veneer rings. When I'm cutting out Silver joint rings I generally use sheet stock 6" wide x 12" long... so I can actually get something else done in the shop while those are being machined. If I was limited to 1.29" travel on ANY axis I think I'd start looking for something else to do with my life.

TW

What you say is correct. It would not have been that difficult or expensive to lengthen the Y axis a few inches.

But for what it was made for. cue inlays and parts, it is an excellent machine.

My next CNC will have more travel.

Kim

aphelps1 · Sep 22, 2014

Kim,
I had to check my Cue Monster on the Y travel after your post. I get 1.475 travel on mine. Not sure where the difference is, just thought I let you know. Of course these are the extremes of the travel also.

Alan

scdiveteam · Sep 22, 2014

Kim,

After talking to you on the phone, I checked the geometry on the silver rings I made and the OD was 1.300. I had plenty of extra headroom on my y axis on both sides.

Move your y manually until the aluminum block touches in the -y direction. There should be no gap visible. Now set you reference home to Zero. Travel +y until the block touches on the other side. If you touch the block on both sides your travel should be 1.4.

When I nest parts I always figure 1.350 as my max y when I draw the geometry and line up my mill on the front straight edge of the slab. Always works without crashes.

There may be an obstruction that you can't see if there is any gap on either end of the block on both sides. Was the backlash nut changed? If so was it the exact same part as the OEM used. That's about all I can think of.

I know you will figure it out. Good luck,

Rick

whammo57 · Sep 22, 2014

scdiveteam said:
Kim,

After talking to you on the phone, I checked the geometry on the silver rings I made and the OD was 1.300. I had plenty of extra headroom on my y axis on both sides.

Move your y manually until the aluminum block touches in the -y direction. There should be no gap visible. Now set you reference home to Zero. Travel +y until the block touches on the other side. If you touch the block on both sides your travel should be 1.4.

When I nest parts I always figure 1.350 as my max y when I draw the geometry and line up my mill on the front straight edge of the slab. Always works without crashes.

There may be an obstruction that you can't see if there is any gap on either end of the block on both sides. Was the backlash nut changed? If so was it the exact same part as the OEM used. That's about all I can think of.

I know you will figure it out. Good luck,

Rick

I will recheck the Y axis travel tomorrow................ everyone seems to have more than me....................

I did change the anti backlash nuts but they are the exact same part..............

Kim

JoeyInCali · Sep 22, 2014

wrong idea.
my bad

whammo57 · Sep 23, 2014

I checked out my cuemonster and on the y-axis where the brass bushings go into the recesses at the end were all packed full of chips It was packed really hard and it took me awhile to dig it out and now I can get 1.4 inches of travel.....

Kim

billiardbum · Sep 23, 2014

Thomas Wayne said:
How odd. I can't imagine even designing a CNC machine with such limitations, let alone actually building an entire a business around one. The cost to increase axis travel is just SO tiny compared to the rest of a machine. My 4-axis mill has 32" x 16" capacity, my 3-axis "parts generator" has an 8+" x 22" work envelope, and my gang-tool lathe has 32" x 18.5" travels.

Must suck to have to lay out inlay parts on such narrow widths and come up with work-arounds for the simplest of operations, such as your veneer rings. When I'm cutting out Silver joint rings I generally use sheet stock 6" wide x 12" long... so I can actually get something else done in the shop while those are being machined. If I was limited to 1.29" travel on ANY axis I think I'd start looking for something else to do with my life.

TW

TW,

This was our early design and 1.4" was the widest on the Y travel of our early machines. Like most, we have learned alot, and now have redesigned our newest Rage CNC machine to travel 19" wide on the Y and 39" on the X. Go to our site and take a look around.

www.uniqueinc.com

scdiveteam · Sep 23, 2014

Jimmy,

Building one cue at a time, the 1.4 y dimension has never presented a limitation problem for me as I never have produced a 2 d inlay that was wider than .750.

Most inlays I do are less than .600 in width and when nesting parts things go pretty easy.

JMO,

Rick

whammo57 · Sep 23, 2014

scdiveteam said:
Jimmy,

Building one cue at a time, the 1.4 y dimension has never presented a limitation problem for me as I never have produced a 2 d inlay that was wider than .750.

Most inlays I do are less than .600 in width and when nesting parts things go pretty easy.

JMO,

Rick

It works just fine........ just found this one anomaly and now it's fixed.....

It's very accurate and repeatable.............

Kim

Thomas Wayne · Sep 23, 2014

billiardbum said:
TW,

This was our early design and 1.4" was the widest on the Y travel of our early machines. Like most, we have learned alot, and now have redesigned our newest Rage CNC machine to travel 19" wide on the Y and 39" on the X. Go to our site and take a look around.

www.uniqueinc.com

Okay, I did go to your site and look around. Given the ready availability of components and information on DIY CNC I was actually a little shocked at the high prices. Below is a photo of a 4- axis machine I built a couple of years ago for a HOF cuemaker. As I recall he had less than $5k in it when I was done, and he could have built it himself for more like $3k:

TW

.

scdiveteam · Sep 24, 2014

Thomas Wayne said:
Okay, I did go to your site and look around. Given the ready availability of components and information on DIY CNC I was actually a little shocked at the high prices. Below is a photo of a 4- axis machine I built a couple of years ago for a HOF cuemaker. As I recall he had less than $5k in it when I was done, and he could have built it himself for more like $3k:

TW

.

TW,

The difference between "Do It Yourself" and the price point differential of a business model that performs custom design engineering bringing a product to market is the following expenses. Anyone who and managed a successful business understand that there are also more line item expenses that I have omitted.

Overhead costs for:

R&D and Engineering
Start up costs
Facilities cost (rent of real estate investment for plant and offices)
Taxes and Insurance
Utilities expenses
Investment in plant equipment
Staff Payroll and associated benefits, taxes and accounting fees
Federal and State taxes on profits to the business
Legal Expenses
Related costs for customer service and downstream product support interaction
Marketing and travel expenses related to trade shows ect.

The list goes on and on and anyone who has run and successful business understands this. Paying out all of the things I mentioned and producing a profitable EBITDA from product sales or service requires a high degree of management and talent. About as far as you can get from "Do it Yourself". LOL.

Unique Products IMHO opinion does all of these things with a great deal of panache. Their products are engineered and manufactured to a very high standard and stand up in the field as they are bullet proof IMO.

How do I know this? I have used many of their product first hand, have received unbelievable customer support after the sale and witnessed solid performance of their products I have owned requiring very little downstream maintenance attention. I have friends who have purchased their equipment used and they get the same customer service support for free BTW.

Example: I purchased one if their Cue Companion repair lathes new for my Billiards Cafe. In the 10 years of operating that lathe the only maintenance I performed to it was changing 3 drive belts at a total cost of only 24.00. This lathe was used every day and I did over $ 140,000.00 in cue repair for a Capitol investment of about 1,500.00. Very impressive indeed!

I have owned their CNC machine for over 6 years and I have only needed to change the drive belt as a maintenance item also on that machine. As you know our industry is very small and everyone interfaces at some point in time. I have never heard anyone knock or talk ill of Unique's products. If fact everyone I know has shared the same experience as I have described here.

So your comparisons to your Do it yourself piece meal to Unique's business model with reference to cost point is just a ridiculous notion.

Shame on you for putting out the notion that you are shocked when viewing there prices reflects that they are charging too much for their fine products in a public forum. If you want to buy components and put together a DIY deal in your basement for you friend that is one thing but comparing that endeavor to what Unique Products does is just plain rude and insensitive with reference to someone else's business.

JMO,

Ricky

Thomas Wayne · Sep 24, 2014

scdiveteam said:
[...]

So your comparisons to your Do it yourself piece meal to Unique's business model with reference to cost point is just a ridiculous notion.

Shame on you for putting out the notion that you are shocked when viewing there prices reflects that they are charging too much for their fine products in a public forum. If you want to buy components and put together a DIY deal in your basement for you friend that is one thing but comparing that endeavor to what Unique Products does is just plain rude and insensitive with reference to someone else's business.

JMO,

Ricky

This from YOU, the absolute master of "ridiculous notions".

"Shame" on me for encouraging cuemakers at any level - beginner to HOF experts - to design and build their own CNC machinery? I was a very early adopter of CNC back when there was NOTHING available on a small business/hobby level. I built my first controller from available circuit boards and machine parts intended for other purposes. Almost ten years after that there STILL was nothing available for small businesses, so I bought my first industrial-level controller and servo motors for $38k - that's in late 80's dollars, btw. Still, I designed and built the machine that it runs to this very day.

It's surely convenient that anyone one with a passing interest in cuemaking can buy everything they need nicely prepackaged and turn-key these days. But the backbone of industry in this country was built on self reliance and individual ingenuity. So I would always encourage anyone with an interest to learn CNC from the ground up, and always build their own machinery.

The real shame is on guys like you, who think they HAVE to buy someone else's questionably-designed machinery to be a cuemaker. I don't build machinery for a living, so I couldn't care less about Unique's "business model". Clearly they have to make their wages and a nice profit or they wouldn't remain in business. The bottom line is there's NOTHING they do that any competent machinist couldn't accomplish with similar ease.

I get that you, and guys like you don't possess the intelligence and skill to build their own equipment, but I've been in the shops of many of the very best cuemakers in the world, and to a man they use machines that THEY designed and [mostly] built. And that says something that all the pompous pontificating you can muster can't.

TW

whammo57 · Sep 24, 2014

Thomas Wayne said:
This from YOU, the absolute master of "ridiculous notions".

"Shame" on me for encouraging cuemakers at any level - beginner to HOF experts - to design and build their own CNC machinery? I was a very early adopter of CNC back when there was NOTHING available on a small business/hobby level. I built my first controller from available circuit boards and machine parts intended for other purposes. Almost ten years after that there STILL was nothing available for small businesses, so I bought my first industrial-level controller and servo motors for $38k - that's in late 80's dollars, btw. Still, I designed and built the machine that it runs to this very day.

It's surely convenient that anyone one with a passing interest in cuemaking can buy everything they need nicely prepackaged and turn-key these days. But the backbone of industry in this country was built on self reliance and individual ingenuity. So I would always encourage anyone with an interest to learn CNC from the ground up, and always build their own machinery.

The real shame is on guys like you, who think they HAVE to buy someone else's questionably-designed machinery to be a cuemaker. I don't build machinery for a living, so I couldn't care less about Unique's "business model". Clearly they have to make their wages and a nice profit or they wouldn't remain in business. The bottom line is there's NOTHING they do that any competent machinist couldn't accomplish with similar ease.

I get that you, and guys like you don't possess the intelligence and skill to build their own equipment, but I've been in the shops of many of the very best cuemakers in the world, and to a man they use machines that THEY designed and [mostly] built. And that says something that all the pompous pontificating you can muster can't.

TW

That's pretty nasty Thomas.......... not at all what this forum is all about..........

Kim

Thomas Wayne · Sep 24, 2014

whammo57 said:
That's pretty nasty Thomas.......... not at all what this forum is all about..........

Kim

Did you bother to read what Rick wrote to me FIRST? Nasty may not be "what this forum is all about", but it certainly is what Rick is all about with me.

My points, which I'll reiterate for those unable to understand or remember, are these:

1) I can't imagine being restricted to having ANY axis on a CNC machine be 1.XX inches (!). To even design (let alone sell) a machine with such limitations is unthinkable to me.

2) I don't pay someone else to change the oil in my car when I can do it myself AND I know exactly what is going into my engine. In the same vein, I have yet to see a marketed CNC machine that will do the things I want to do in cuemaking, and I can't imagine paying someone retail prices for what they think is a "good idea".

3) These days, with tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of CNC enthusiast and hobbyists populating multiple Internet forums and fueling a plethora businesses catering to their needs, designing and building your own CNC equipment is easy. Why in the world would you pay someone else to do that for you - especially when the end result requires work-arounds and cumbersome processes to accomplish what should be simple operations?

As for that being "nasty", I don't like Rick and he has certainly shown he doesn't like me either. I'm good with that, since I consider him to be pretty much a joke as a cuemaker - as do many, many others. But if he wants to get mouthy with me he's going to have to expect that I'll give back as good as I get.

TW

scdiveteam · Sep 24, 2014

TW,

I was only pointing out that when someone produces a machine and has a business model to bring it to market, they must incur all the expenses of running that business and the cost of doing business goes up exponentially compared to Do it yourselfer's like you. That is elementary. No one said or was the harbinger stating that Unique CNCs are the best in the business. Changing the topic is the oldest trick in the book of obfuscation.

To go out of your way to diminish what Unique has presented as a business offering and to somehow believe the price point is wrong shows your lack of understanding of basic business realities.

Do you really think that you have to build your own machine to do a function using a CNC. Why don't you build your own lathe and milling machine too so you can do better turning and milling jobs!

There is nothing wrong with having a passion for CNC machine building, I get that but it is plane wrong to attack or diminish what anyone else does. Your manners are showing. You should not act the way you do as it shows no respect to others.

What Unique has done is found a market niche whereby a cue maker can buy a machine and do inlays and pockets in their cues with high accuracy if they opt for the NSK spindle. If you think those machines don't do 2D pocketing and profiling to a high level of accuracy, well you must have blinders on. Now 4 axis radial geometry, well that is quite a different story and I will defer to your expertise in that area.

No one gains, when they attack another man's business or practices. It always looks and smells like sour grapes. You can think and believe what you wish and thats fine but if you don't have something nice to say, better to keep it to yourself. Expressing Grace is always your best way to go.

This forum is always a better place when everyone plays nice together in the sand box.

JMO,

Ricky

veneer rings

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