10-ball with 9-ball rules-why?

leto1776 · Jan 4, 2015

I sensed a debate starting in the 2015 DCC Bigfoot thread, and thought a separate discussion would be good.

One rule: keep it respectful, to each other, and to a great event.

The topic: why play 10-ball with 9-ball rules? Imo, it takes away from the nature of having a game that is separate from 9-ball. It just becomes 9-ball with an extra ball and more difficult break.

Cornerman · Jan 4, 2015

leto1776 said:
I sensed a debate starting in the 2015 DCC Bigfoot thread, and thought a separate discussion would be good.

One rule: keep it respectful, to each other, and to a great event.

The topic: why play 10-ball with 9-ball rules? Imo, it takes away from the nature of having a game that is separate from 9-ball. It just becomes 9-ball with an extra ball and more difficult break.

You ask a good question, and I'll give the same answer:

10-ball was played with "9-ball rules" for decades. Seemed pretty perfect back then. Especially for the back room green players.

I understand the reason for the WPA to change the rules in recent years (makes for a different game with different strategy), but let's not make "10-ball with 9-ball rules" some kind of "evil abomination" that wasn't around for a long time before the WPA.

Freddie <~~~ loved the old style of 10-ball. New style... not so much

TheLoneSilencer · Jan 4, 2015

Cornerman said:
You ask a good question, and I'll give the same answer:

10-ball was played with "9-ball rules" for decades. Seemed pretty perfect back then. Especially for the back room green players.

I understand the reason for the WPA to change the rules in recent years (makes for a different game with different strategy), but let's not make "10-ball with 9-ball rules" some kind of "evil abomination" that wasn't around for a long time before the WPA.

Freddie <~~~ loved the old style of 10-ball. New style... not so much

All because it was around does not mean it was the right way.

RRfireblade · Jan 4, 2015

Cause for a lot of people, that's enough of an incremental increase in challenge. Which is basically the reason that 10 ball came about in the first place. It's not like someone sat down and had a completely original thought for a brand new game like nothing that ever existed before.

3andstop · Jan 4, 2015

I don't know ... I think there was a concerted effort to take some of the shit out of the game when the rules were made, but regardless .... what's the difference? Play by whatever rules you like better, or make your own.

I'm betting part of the reason is to keep it simple for spectators although, I think spectators know 8 ball the best anyway.

CJ Wiley · Jan 4, 2015

.they eliminate the "2 Way Shot," which is one of the most strategic, and creative

The "new" 10 Ball rules have a fatal flaw.....they eliminate the "2 Way Shot," which is one of the most strategic, creative and challenging of all pool shots.

leto1776 said:
I sensed a debate starting in the 2015 DCC Bigfoot thread, and thought a separate discussion would be good.

One rule: keep it respectful, to each other, and to a great event.

The topic: why play 10-ball with 9-ball rules? Imo, it takes away from the nature of having a game that is separate from 9-ball. It just becomes 9-ball with an extra ball and more difficult break.

Old Nine Baller · Jan 4, 2015

leto1776 said:
I sensed a debate starting in the 2015 DCC Bigfoot thread, and thought a separate discussion would be good.

One rule: keep it respectful, to each other, and to a great event.

The topic: why play 10-ball with 9-ball rules? Imo, it takes away from the nature of having a game that is separate from 9-ball. It just becomes 9-ball with an extra ball and more difficult break.

If my memory is correct I believe that 10 Ball originally came about as a way to mitigate a player's great 9 Ball break. It was originally played 2 Foul just like 9 Ball was.

They wouldn't really be changing anything, just returning it to it's original purpose which has been bastardized through the years.

ONB

Old Nine Baller · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The "new" 10 Ball rules have a fatal flaw.....they eliminate the "2 Way Shot," which is one of the most strategic, creative and challenging of all pool shots.

CJ,

With all sincerity, I do wish you'd explain just one time what you mean by "two-way shot".

ONB

Cornerman · Jan 4, 2015

TheLoneSilencer said:
All because it was around does not mean it was the right way.

The poster asked a question: why? And it's a simple answer as stated: because it was played that way for decades and it was certainly enjoyed. It obviously is still a preferred way to play for many, or else someone like Jay would not run a tournament that way.

Secondly, the OP said something that I disagree with: it takes away from the nature having a game...

Since 10-ball was originally played "like 9-ball," then it is erroneous to make a statement about today's WPA 10-ball ruleset as the "nature" of the game.

Whether or not it's "right" is completely moot.

Old Nine Baller · Jan 4, 2015

RRfireblade said:
Cause for a lot of people, that's enough of an incremental increase in challenge. Which is basically the reason that 10 ball came about in the first place. It's not like someone sat down and had a completely original thought for a brand new game like nothing that ever existed before.

The extra ball was not the reason for the game, it was to lessen the break of a 9 Ball player with a great break.

ONB

DogsPlayingPool · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The "new" 10 Ball rules have a fatal flaw.....they eliminate the "2 Way Shot," which is one of the most strategic, creative and challenging of all pool shots.

What rules are you referring to, CJ? This is not true under WPA rules except in the case of a wrongfully pocketed ball. But under WPA rules you most definitely can play for the the safety if you miss.

For reference, from the WPA rules:

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

9.8 Continuing Play
If the shooter legally pockets a called/nominated ball on a shot (except a push out, see 9.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out), any additional balls pocketed remain pocketed (except the ten ball; see 9.9 Spotting Balls), and he continues at the table for the next shot. If he legally pockets the called ten ball on any shot (except a push out), he wins the rack. If the shooter fails to pocket the called ball or fouls, play passes to the other player, and if no foul was committed, the incoming player must play the cue ball from the position left by the other player.

__________

The reason Texas Express 10 Ball is played today is mainly as a way to sidestep the issues with the 9 Ball break.

CJ Wiley · Jan 4, 2015

Can the incoming player make you shoot again if you miss an easy shot?

So can the incoming player make you shoot again if you miss an easy shot and hook them?

DogsPlayingPool said:
What rules are you referring to, CJ? This is not true under WPA rules except in the case of a wrongfully pocketed ball. But under WPA rules you most definitely can play for the the safety if you miss.

__________

The reason Texas Express 10 Ball is played today is mainly as a way to sidestep the issues with the 9 Ball break.

DogsPlayingPool · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
So can the incoming player make you shoot again if you miss an easy shot and hook them?

No he cannot. He must take take the balls in position as long as there was no foul committed or a wrongfully pocketed ball was made.

I added the pertinent rules to my post after you posted.

There is a rule set used in the Tony Robles event and a couple of others (the SBE was played this way a couple of years at the urging of Archer's union) that are the so called WPA+ rules - option on any miss. But under the more widely accepted WPA rules the 2 way shot is alive and well.

CJ Wiley · Jan 4, 2015

Buddy Hall wanting to play 10 Ball instead of 9 Ball (because of Wade's break)

This is faulty reasoning isn't it, I would much rather play a weak breaker 10 Ball, they may not make a ball 20% of the time on a tight table with worn cloth.

Wade Crane had the best break on the planet for a number of years. He used to laugh at Buddy Hall wanting to play 10 Ball instead of 9 Ball (because of Wade's break) saying that the weaker breaker was at even more of a disadvantage playing 10 Ball, than 9 Ball.

Wade Crane (RIP) and "Night Mare" Mary K.

Old Nine Baller said:
The extra ball was not the reason for the game, it was to lessen the break of a 9 Ball player with a great break.

ONB

TheLoneSilencer · Jan 4, 2015

Cornerman said:
The poster asked a question: why? And it's a simple answer as stated: because it was played that way for decades and it was certainly enjoyed. It obviously is still a preferred way to play for many, or else someone like Jay would not run a tournament that way.

Secondly, the OP said something that I disagree with: it takes away from the nature having a game...

Since 10-ball was originally played "like 9-ball," then it is erroneous to make a statement about today's WPA 10-ball ruleset as the "nature" of the game.

Whether or not it's "right" is completely moot.

You are wrong, it is not moot but you have the right to think what you want.

Old Nine Baller · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
This is faulty reasoning isn't it, I would much rather play a weak breaker 10 Ball, they may not make a ball 20% of the time on a tight table with worn cloth.

Wade Crane had the best break on the planet for a number of years. He used to laugh at Buddy Hall wanting to play 10 Ball instead of 9 Ball (because of Wade's break) saying that the weaker breaker was at even more of a disadvantage playing 10 Ball, than 9 Ball.

The reason for 10 Ball's "invention" was to mitigate the break of a great 9 Ball breaker. You cannot change this by pointing out one exception to the rule.

P.S. I was not "reasoning" anything, merely stating the facts from years ago.

ONB

Black-Balled · Jan 4, 2015

leto1776 said:
I sensed a debate starting in the 2015 DCC Bigfoot thread, and thought a separate discussion would be good.

One rule: keep it respectful, to each other, and to a great event.

The topic: why play 10-ball with 9-ball rules? Imo, it takes away from the nature of having a game that is separate from 9-ball. It just becomes 9-ball with an extra ball and more difficult break.

I don't care for your rules,

jsp · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
So can the incoming player make you shoot again if you miss an easy shot and hook them?

I think at one point during the development of the 10-ball rules this was the case. But as the rules stand currently, two-way shots are allowed, as pointed out by DPP.

Old Nine Baller · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
Wade Crane had the best break on the planet for a number of years. He used to laugh at Buddy Hall wanting to play 10 Ball instead of 9 Ball (because of Wade's break)

What proof do you have of this happening? You constantly make comments like this but never give any proof. If you have no proof then it didn't happen.

ONB

Black-Balled · Jan 4, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The "new" 10 Ball rules have a fatal flaw.....they eliminate the "2 Way Shot," which is one of the most strategic, creative and challenging of all pool shots.

'Fatal flaw' implies it is a problem.

If you believe the 2way shot belongs in pool, how can you advocate 2foul pool?

That shit killed more 2way shots than anything else, ever.

10-ball with 9-ball rules-why?

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