Why not play 15 ball rotation?

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I have always wondered why 15 ball rotation (the traditional game, not the new "American rotation") is not the chosen game to measure pro skills. Obviously I favor straight pool, others may favor 8 ball and one pocket, but as far as playing balls in rotation I don't think 15 ball rotation could be beaten.

First the break: Even though the break in this game would eventually figured out to a certain degree (playing position on the one for example), the congestion caused by 15 balls and the unpredictability of the full rack would make it immune to the problems of other rotation games.

Second, the gameplay: Safteties, kicking, shotmaking, position play, rotation has got it all. No one is going to run the set out, and if they did it would surely be an astonishing feat. No softbreak identical layouts. IMHO you have to be a complete pool player to play rotation at a high level, which explains why the Phillipinos are doing so well at all games, even games they have hardly ever played before.

Third, fairness: Although there is a certain degree of unfairness in the fact that the lowest numbered balls have the least points to them, still you will never get the sitiuation where a player runs all the balls but one, and then loses.

Fourth, simplicity: It is a feature of all good poolgames that they have a certain simplicity about them. Rotation has that. You score the number of points on the ball you sink, doesn't get any easier than that. One of the many reasons why bonus ball and Power Snooker failed is that they are just to darned complicated for any viewers to bother learning.

Fifth, integrity: Perhaps this needs a bit of explaining. To me there is something unnatural about the "ball in hand anywhere on the table rule", it feels like cheating to me. Shooting a spot shot, shooting from the kitchen and having the option of taking the the table as it is or passing it to your opponent are much better IMHO. That way you essentially earn every opportunity after a foul.

Sixth, challenging the pros: While I don't necessarily always agree with the whining that 9 ball does not challenge the pros, playing rotation ought to stop that whining forever.
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Rotation would be a great tournament game, and I've actually thought about doing one. Thanks for the suggestion. I guarantee you one thing, the best players will be the ones left standing in the end. Efren reigned for years in the Philippines, until Dennis took over. They play Rotation all the time over there, granted a slightly different version than our game, but not by much.
 

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
Straight rotation is an awesome game...was very popular back in the day. The U.S. military brought it to the Philippines, then we Americans forgot about it...the Filipinos kept it and it's a good explanation for their dominance in rotation games. It combines all pocket billiards skills and strategy, on steroids! I would love to see a tournament with top players...please oh please!!!!
 

Chrippa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Would be great to see! Do anyone knows where to find the rules for it?
Have played the ghost by myself sometimes only and then the rules isn´t that hard.... :p

Chrippa
 

gerard soriano

HIGH RUN STILL TO COME !
Silver Member
I agree with you !
I also think ball in hand is insane
I am old enough to have played nine ball with push out on all shots and if the guy made the nine and scratched you didn't win ,you had to make a spot shot
The reason they changed the rules was for tv to make the game faster and sinse there is never any pool on tv anymore I say bring back the old rules and don't even start me on jump cues !!!!
 

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
yes!

I have always wondered why 15 ball rotation (the traditional game, not the new "American rotation") is not the chosen game to measure pro skills. Obviously I favor straight pool, others may favor 8 ball and one pocket, but as far as playing balls in rotation I don't think 15 ball rotation could be beaten.

First the break: Even though the break in this game would eventually figured out to a certain degree (playing position on the one for example), the congestion caused by 15 balls and the unpredictability of the full rack would make it immune to the problems of other rotation games.

Second, the gameplay: Safteties, kicking, shotmaking, position play, rotation has got it all. No one is going to run the set out, and if they did it would surely be an astonishing feat. No softbreak identical layouts. IMHO you have to be a complete pool player to play rotation at a high level, which explains why the Phillipinos are doing so well at all games, even games they have hardly ever played before.

Third, fairness: Although there is a certain degree of unfairness in the fact that the lowest numbered balls have the least points to them, still you will never get the sitiuation where a player runs all the balls but one, and then loses.

Fourth, simplicity: It is a feature of all good poolgames that they have a certain simplicity about them. Rotation has that. You score the number of points on the ball you sink, doesn't get any easier than that. One of the many reasons why bonus ball and Power Snooker failed is that they are just to darned complicated for any viewers to bother learning.

Fifth, integrity: Perhaps this needs a bit of explaining. To me there is something unnatural about the "ball in hand anywhere on the table rule", it feels like cheating to me. Shooting a spot shot, shooting from the kitchen and having the option of taking the the table as it is or passing it to your opponent are much better IMHO. That way you essentially earn every opportunity after a foul.

Sixth, challenging the pros: While I don't necessarily always agree with the whining that 9 ball does not challenge the pros, playing rotation ought to stop that whining forever.

I agree...think it's a great game1

One of my first pool thrills as a kid was when a guy asked me to play a game of rotation for 25 cents a point, and gave me the break.

So I broke, ran out to 61, and laid the cue on the table.

"Game ain't over till all the balls are gone!" cried the guy.

I knew better, and I hadn't played position with my last shot, but I was afraid if I argued I wouldn't get paid, so I picked up the cue banked the next shot and ran out for 121 quarters. My first "big score" playing pool!
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Most pros don't think they should have to work at anything...including pool. Johnnyt
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think trying to calculate 61 for who wins in rotation is a pain. So here is how I keep score. The five is worth one point, the ten is one point and the fifteen is two points. Another way is the eight is worth one point and the fifteen two points. You race to so many points. I am not familiar with the rules of American Rotation. Can someone tell me what the diifference in it and normal rotation is?
 

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
counting

I think trying to calculate 61 for who wins in rotation is a pain. So here is how I keep score. The five is worth one point, the ten is one point and the fifteen is two points. Another way is the eight is worth one point and the fifteen two points. You race to so many points. I am not familiar with the rules of American Rotation. Can someone tell me what the diifference in it and normal rotation is?

That's why I like having "counters" on the table or the wall, or a string with beads above the table (remember those?), or even just a small blackboard.
 

jamesjr1963

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have always wondered why 15 ball rotation (the traditional game, not the new "American rotation") is not the chosen game to measure pro skills. Obviously I favor straight pool, others may favor 8 ball and one pocket, but as far as playing balls in rotation I don't think 15 ball rotation could be beaten.

First the break: Even though the break in this game would eventually figured out to a certain degree (playing position on the one for example), the congestion caused by 15 balls and the unpredictability of the full rack would make it immune to the problems of other rotation games.

Second, the gameplay: Safteties, kicking, shotmaking, position play, rotation has got it all. No one is going to run the set out, and if they did it would surely be an astonishing feat. No softbreak identical layouts. IMHO you have to be a complete pool player to play rotation at a high level, which explains why the Phillipinos are doing so well at all games, even games they have hardly ever played before.

Third, fairness: Although there is a certain degree of unfairness in the fact that the lowest numbered balls have the least points to them, still you will never get the sitiuation where a player runs all the balls but one, and then loses.

Fourth, simplicity: It is a feature of all good poolgames that they have a certain simplicity about them. Rotation has that. You score the number of points on the ball you sink, doesn't get any easier than that. One of the many reasons why bonus ball and Power Snooker failed is that they are just to darned complicated for any viewers to bother learning.

Fifth, integrity: Perhaps this needs a bit of explaining. To me there is something unnatural about the "ball in hand anywhere on the table rule", it feels like cheating to me. Shooting a spot shot, shooting from the kitchen and having the option of taking the the table as it is or passing it to your opponent are much better IMHO. That way you essentially earn every opportunity after a foul.

Sixth, challenging the pros: While I don't necessarily always agree with the whining that 9 ball does not challenge the pros, playing rotation ought to stop that whining forever.


Couldn't agree with you more. What would your thoughts be on eliminating the push after the break, since there would be the option rule, placing the cue ball on the head-spot or possibly a very small break box, for the break?
 

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I started out playing 15 ball Rotation. Still play it today. I have no trouble counting to 61. Ball count at the beginning is slow to add up, but after a couple of big combos, the game builds it's tension. Run outs & safety play become the norm.

We didn't have Jump Cues, so we had the rails or Masse' shots to get out of trouble.

We played foul shots, where the cue ball stopped rolling, Pushouts keep treachery to a minimum.

All scratches give the opponent ball in hand behind the line (that might bring some safety play into the mix).

We had fun, even when we played "slop counts". In a competitive environment (tournament or gambling) slop goes away.

Rack 'em up & try it, you might have fun too.

I like 9 ball & other rotation games, 8 ball is great too, when played in a rotation fashion.
 

NitPicker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know you're joking, but did you ever try to spread 21 balls out on a break? I have and they don't move well. Johnnyt

I haven't but I would imagine that would be the case. I realize that a 10 footer would leave more room to move around. But do pros have an easier time playing 9 or 10 ball on 10 footers? It doesn't seem so to me, in the big foot events, etc. that I've seen. Even though there is much less room, I find 8 ball easier on bar tables than 9ft. Maybe it's just my perception.
 

rhatten

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whether it be rotation or American rotation, let's make 2015 the year of 15-ball!

This ^^^^^


I think trying to calculate 61 for who wins in rotation is a pain. So here is how I keep score. The five is worth one point, the ten is one point and the fifteen is two points. Another way is the eight is worth one point and the fifteen two points. You race to so many points. I am not familiar with the rules of American Rotation. Can someone tell me what the difference in it and normal rotation is?

....

American Rotation needs a serious look from our promoters AND from dedicated Pool enthusiasts. Get involved with this great game and make a healthy change to 'everything pool'.

The game is designed to reduce the luck factor and promote improvement. Like most rotation games in different areas of the world each have a different set of rules (spotting balls/ shooting from the kitchen etc). The new American Rotation (Tucker) has really simple set of rules... basically its "call shot / call safe" or make you shoot again; Alternating break/ Break Ball in hand first shot; 1 point for balls 1-10 ... 2 points for 11-15 for a total of 20 points per rack. Races are to 100-140 (or whatever the players or event offers) and can be handicapped very easily. National American Rotation events are where qualified players have real shot at thousands...$$. It the 'cleanest/well rounded.... most fair game pool has to offer'. (Yeah, 10 ball- 'call everything/ can't win on the break' has made a huge step forward over what 9-ball Tex Express has done to pool and gambling... Bank Pool is truely awesome but its just 'clean banks'... One Pocket is aslo great but how many times have you gotten beat on a piss in out of the stack on a 2 rail kick or spent 2 hours in a putting match only to get beat with a lucky shot kissing off of something unintended or one simple miss cue??... brutal. This can't happen in American Rotation ) .. it 1 ball in 1 hole. For complete details and rules on American Rotation , log onto Joe's official website, http://joetucker.net or his American Rotation site, http://americanrotation.com. In 2014 there has been minor rule changes but necessary ones and has made the game even more intriguing.

If you're not familiar with this game, the links below will get you update. 'The game was introduced to help make Americans more competitive'. This games' format can appeal to a larger group of players looking to improve the sport and bring in healthy new interest. Is it 'the answer' to pool's torrid history? No. But it is a HUGE step forward a part of the positive solution pool NEEDs going forward.

American Rotation is a fresh take on a traditional game, created by Joe Tucker. The rules are simple. Players from all levels see it benefiting their other games as well. Yes it also can be handicapped very efficiently so everyone can engage at getting better at their own game instead of simply admiring the 'job challenged' pool specialist knock each other down.

American Rotation the only game offered today that can neutralize the differences in equipment across the country (at least the top 20% of the better equipment) because, like a Golf tee shot everyone gets the same operatunity at the table with an alternating break format.

Joe also says: "An added bonus of American Rotation is that players appear to get along better with each other. They are focused more on the table and their opportunities, and are spending less time worried about the luck of the break and the luck of their opponent’s misses, which are now received with a smile and “Shoot again”.

Hope this helps,

Randy

Links………………….…………………..
American Rotation
What Is It, and Why Should You Play?
http://www.billiardsprofessor.com/archives/573

American Rotation .....General info…
http://www.americanbilliardclub.com/

Please WATCH... American Rotation ...2014 Finals in Las Vegas...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwP2D3T10c

Please WATCH... American Rotation ...2014 video filmed for us at Derby City in January 2014.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU6f7XvgUoM&app=desktop race to 100

What Other AZ'er have to say ...Searched ' "American Rotation" ' on AZ
http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=14470682&pp=25


Paper method score sheet... in case someone needs to use the old paper route
http://www.americanbilliardclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/AR-scoresheet.pdf


American Rotation rules Alternate break from get go.doc
https://www.facebook.com/download/1...otation rules Alternate break from get go.doc


American Rotation Facebook link… go here for current updates, events, photos etc
https://www.facebook.com/groups/210936945759205/210939152425651/[/QUOTE]



Here's the good part about Score Keeping.. There's a Great app..

picture.php


American Rotation Scorekeeper APP (google play $3... best used on a tablet or larger screen device)
....Joe Tucker - updated April 24, 2014…. Get this~!!
GET THIS APP.. this makes The All New American Rotation SCORE KEEPING a breeze... Also the AmRo rules are included include in this App.

Android .. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.salvisolve.americanrotationscorekeeper&hl=en or here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/...vbHZlLmFtZXJpY2Fucm90YXRpb25zY29yZWtlZXBlciJd

iPhone on itunes.. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/american-rotation-scorekeeper/id668053496?mt=8
 
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