Vernon Elliott's impossible cross-side bank

Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Here is a shot that has been discussed over in the DCC forum, but I thought it ought to get wider coverage. It is one of those shots that goes beyond really, really hard into the realm of impossibility.

Vernon_Elliott.gif


The shot is played with a level cue stick and maximum outside english (left in the picture). The cushion has not been doctored, and the object ball is entirely on the flat part of the cushion as shown -- not partly on the point of the side pocket.

How many tries would you give up for an even money bet?

Before you answer, look at the shot on a table and try it a few times. It looks much harder in person.
 
Wow. Looks tough. I bet the conditions play an important part as well, humidity, cloth age, clean/dirty balls etc. Gotta try this one, but looks like one of those proposition shots I get tired of trying after 10 attempts, because it's just too difficult.
 
mjantti said:
Wow. Looks tough. I bet the conditions play an important part as well, humidity, cloth age, clean/dirty balls etc. Gotta try this one, but looks like one of those proposition shots I get tired of trying after 10 attempts, because it's just too difficult.
Click to expand...

Wow, gotta agree with you there mjantti!!! I gotta try this one myself!

Thanks Bob for the post.
 
He wouldnt only just make it, but hed offer a the bet on the shot taking just ONE SWING AT IT!!!! not 30 shots, 50, 100, just ONE. Sick
 
> Back when I was just getting into the competitive side of the game,there were a couple regulars at The Rack in Memphis that messed with all kinds of stuff like this. The cross-side discussed here was one of them,along with this one,which I was told was also a Vernon shot.

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> Harry,the guy that showed me this shot,made it at least once in ten tries,but the ONLY place I've ever made it was on the same table. When he hit it just good enough to make the ball or at least get it close,the cue ball had so much flat spin on it it basically just slid to the left and the object ball barely cleared it,screwing itself into the table at point A,if he hit it really good the cue ball spun out to about point B,no more than 3-4 inches of travel off the rail. Where the difficulty lies isn't just how much spin it takes to transfer enough spin to complete the billiard,not getting the double kiss is vital,and extremely difficult. You are almost forced to try and cut it backwards a hair to try and beat the pocket point on older tables,but cutting the ball backwards a mere 1/16 inch more than is needed from that distance makes the shot pointless it will never be made. This is hell on wheels,people,I shot nothing but this while running up a 30 dollar table tab,and made it MAYBE 30 times in about 500 tries. I did hit a bunch that would have been a monster lag in one pocket if that was the last ball,but they still hung. I'm not sure it can be made on a Diamond with the biggest pockets they offer. The side pocket bank can probably be done on any table fast enough,if you hit it good enough to get the object ball that far across table,you just about can't keep from making it.

Also,the angle into and coming off the rail are exaggerated for effect. Tommy D.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is a shot that has been discussed over in the DCC forum, but I thought it ought to get wider coverage. It is one of those shots that goes beyond really, really hard into the realm of impossibility.

View attachment 36070


The shot is played with a level cue stick and maximum outside english (left in the picture). The cushion has not been doctored, and the object ball is entirely on the flat part of the cushion as shown -- not partly on the point of the side pocket.

How many tries would you give up for an even money bet?

Before you answer, look at the shot on a table and try it a few times. It looks much harder in person.
Click to expand...

There is a little trick to this shot. SHHHH! It is where you place the object ball. Put it right at the point of the side pocket, with a little of the ball extending over the opening to the side. It now becomes a makeable bank, although an extremely difficult one.

Also if you place the cue ball one ball off the rail (that is how the shot was set-up by many old timers), it looks just as hard, but now you have a small angle. The Goose used to steal the money setting it up like this. I know because he beat me shooting this shot years ago. We shot it ten times each, and I made it once. He made it three times.

Vernon always asked for twenty or twenty five tries, before settling for five, or even three. He would sometimes get people to give him 20 tries and make it on the 15th or 17th or like that. Then he would ask for ten tries and do it again on the 7th or 8th try. Finally he would accept five tries and do it again. I never saw him shoot it even money.
 
jay helfert said:
There is a little trick to this shot. SHHHH! It is where you place the object ball. Put it right at the point of the side pocket, with a little of the ball extending over the opening to the side. It now becomes a makeable bank, although an extremely difficult one.
Click to expand...

Is that where Vernon would place the object ball Jay? (so that it's not quite as far past the side pocket as the diagram has it?)
 
PoolBum said:
Is that where Vernon would place the object ball Jay? (so that it's not quite as far past the side pocket as the diagram has it?)
Click to expand...

He would put it right at the point, a little closer than shown in the diagram. Still a super tough shot, but makeable if you have the stroke. Bugs could also do it. He is the only one who could match Vernon bank for bank. Of course Eddie Taylor could make some miraculous shots too. He would bank balls cross side "over" blocking balls. And I swear I saw him make the object ball curve, going slightly around a blocking ball. How, I have no idea to this day. You can ask Buddy about this shot. He saw it to.

Remember we were playing on much different cloth, the old Stevens cloth. It had a lot more 'bite' to it. Meaning it would take the english better. I think this shot can be made today on that slow cloth they used in the IPT events.
I don't know about making it on the slick Simoniz though.
 
jay helfert said:
He would put it right at the point, a little closer than shown in the diagram. Still a super tough shot, but makeable if you have the stroke. Bugs could also do it. He is the only one who could match Vernon bank for bank. Of course Eddie Taylor could make some miraculous shots too. He would bank balls cross side "over" blocking balls. And I swear I saw him make the object ball curve, going slightly around a blocking ball. How, I have no idea to this day. You can ask Buddy about this shot. He saw it to.

Remember we were playing on much different cloth, the old Stevens cloth. It had a lot more 'bite' to it. Meaning it would take the english better. I think this shot can be made today on that slow cloth they used in the IPT events.
I don't know about making it on the slick Simoniz though.
Click to expand...

You saw right, Joey Spaeth<Gary's dad> told me Taylor
used to "bend" the ball all the time
with a combonation of speed and English

IMHO you are dead on about the cloth. IMHO the old Manhatten
Asbestos k66 rubber also contributed

Have you seen Vernon make the shot?
I had only heard about it, never saw anyone actually do it.
I assumed they lofted the CB slightly, like the old trick shot
where you shoot between two balls that are slightly
less than 2 1/4 ins apart

otherwise I guess it depends on a "rub" kiss
Bank pool players will understand what this means
------------------------------------------------------

SimoniZ? <Simonize> typo or Fruedian slip?


I remember the old Stevens 100% wool?
Now there was some pool cloth

Dale
 
Last edited:
pdcue said:
You saw right, Joey Spaeth<Gary's dad> told me Taylor
used to "bend" the ball all the time
with a combonation of speed and English

IMHO you are dead on about the cloth. IMHO the old Manhatten
Asbestos k66 rubber also contributed

Have you seen Vernon make the shot?
I had only heard about it, never saw anyone actually do it.
I assumed they lofted the CB slightly, like the old trick shot
where you shoot between two balls that are slightly
less than 2 1/4 ins apart

otherwise I guess it depends on a "rub" kiss
Bank pool players will understand what this means
------------------------------------------------------

SimoniZ? <Simonize> typo or Fruedian slip?


I remember the old Stevens 100% wool?
Now there was some pool cloth

Dale
Click to expand...

Vernon did not elevate his cue when shooting this shot. He hit it very hard, with extreme english on the cue ball. I saw him do it at Johnston City and collect the money. Someone had given him ten tries I think, and he made it on the 6th or 7th try. No bets after that. It was a big bet too, something like $100 (serious money back then).

For all I know he wet the object ball where it touched the rail. He was a hustler after all.
 
Check out p.167 of BWTB

Vernon's shot is ably covered in my book Banking With The Beard on page 167. Vernon did not need to put the ball on the corner (tit) of the side pocket. I have seen him make it putting the ball an inch further down the rail from the tit. He came upon this shot accidentally when he began overcutting his famous cross corner (page 166 of BWTB) where the Qball and Object both lie frozen on the long rail and the OB is on the lip of the pocket.

Eddie Taylor could bend the object ball on long cross corner banks. A super hard, force follow stroke was needed to make the ball curve slightly.

the Beard
 

Attachments

jay helfert said:
There is a little trick to this shot. SHHHH! It is where you place the object ball. Put it right at the point of the side pocket, with a little of the ball extending over the opening to the side. It now becomes a makeable bank, although an extremely difficult one. ...
Click to expand...
That may be a shot, and it may be that Elliott did this from time to time, but it's not the shot we're discussing. As I said in the description, and as FTB confirmed, the object ball is entirely on the flat part of the side rail where it cannot hit the point. In BWTB, Freddy shows the cue ball a little farther back, which makes the angle easier and the hit harder.

I'm willing to take 30 tries on a normal table for the shot I illustrated with a small gaff. I have over cut the ball and hit above the opposite side pocket.
 
freddy the beard said:
Vernon's shot is ably covered in my book Banking With The Beard on page 167. Vernon did not need to put the ball on the corner (tit) of the side pocket. I have seen him make it putting the ball an inch further down the rail from the tit. He came upon this shot accidentally when he began overcutting his famous cross corner (page 166 of BWTB) where the Qball and Object both lie frozen on the long rail and the OB is on the lip of the pocket.

Eddie Taylor could bend the object ball on long cross corner banks. A super hard, force follow stroke was needed to make the ball curve slightly.

the Beard
Click to expand...

Freddy,
I talked to a guy who traveled with Vern and saw him do the shot many times. He said that Vern elevated the cue 30 degrees and the path of the cue ball after it hit the object ball would go across the table to the other long rail. This is a little different than in your book. Any comments???
 
Bob Jewett said:
That may be a shot, and it may be that Elliott did this from time to time, but it's not the shot we're discussing. As I said in the description, and as FTB confirmed, the object ball is entirely on the flat part of the side rail where it cannot hit the point. In BWTB, Freddy shows the cue ball a little farther back, which makes the angle easier and the hit harder.

I'm willing to take 30 tries on a normal table for the shot I illustrated with a small gaff. I have over cut the ball and hit above the opposite side pocket.
Click to expand...


You may have misunderstood me. I did not mean the object ball was on the point of the side pocket. It is on the side rail, but the closer to the side pocket the better. Vernon could make this shot with the object ball an inch down the rail if necessary (if the bet was right), with the cue ball as far down as the first diamond. Once again I never saw or heard of him taking even money on this shot. He always negotiated for as many tries as he could get, usually settling for ten or more.
 
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