The Pros and Cons of a Conservative vs Modern Style

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Equipment is probably a factor also. It's been a long time since I played with clay balls and nap cloth but I don't think the balls spread as good as they do now with fast cloth and plastic balls.

Wow, you are an old timer! Clay balls have not been the norm since the 1950's. Nap cloth went out with the mid 1980's, so even I'm old enough to remember that!

This is the best post in the thread. The playing conditions dictated the styles back then and also now for most players.

Back in the day, the balls didn't spread very well, so you had to go about your business differently and you also had to find a way to get tighter shape on the breakshots than the players of today.

Guys like Hohmann and Feijen, who cream the break shot and rarely have to deal with many secondary break shots are the exception even today. Lassiter, the best ball pocketer of his era, was also inclined to cream the break shot more than occasionally.

Excellent thread with a lot of well-reasoned posts!
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would just comment that when I took my 14.1 lesson with Dallas West, and he was walking me through a run, I was always ready to go into clusters and break more balls open. And he kept stopping me saying, "Not yet. There's time to get those open later."

Interesting because I remember also hearing to break up all the clusters asap until all the balls are open.... I guess there are many exceptions to that rule.
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Interesting because I remember also hearing to break up all the clusters asap until all the balls are open.... I guess there are many exceptions to that rule.

This would seem to be in accordance with a modern playing style (the "asap" part). Old-school players tend to first clean out those areas towards which balls might spread on secondary break shots in order to avoid creating more/new clusters. All a matter of maintaining control.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Last edited:

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
David, thank you for posting this run; i always learn so much from your playing!

i was also surprised at that point late in the run that you didn't shoot the 10 and go around to deal with the 9, 3, and 12. as you said, there was plenty of time for me to ponder it along with you, and it's interesting to me that you, as a much stronger player, wound up choosing that route. this was the most interesting point in the video, imo.

two questions:
(1) did you mean to reference a start point 1:45 into the video instead of the beginning? that's what the link you provided does.

(2) i've been meaning to ask for some years now what the "acousticsguru" moniker references? in fact, i've wondered so long, and am old enough, that maybe i already did and you answered; sorry if so. [i'm a mostly retired recording engineer, some of it studio, more of it location classical dates, with occasional live sound to fill in]
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
David, thank you for posting this run; i always learn so much from your playing!

i was also surprised at that point late in the run that you didn't shoot the 10 and go around to deal with the 9, 3, and 12. as you said, there was plenty of time for me to ponder it along with you, and it's interesting to me that you, as a much stronger player, wound up choosing that route. this was the most interesting point in the video, imo.

two questions:
(1) did you mean to reference a start point 1:45 into the video instead of the beginning? that's what the link you provided does.

(2) i've been meaning to ask for some years now what the "acousticsguru" moniker references? in fact, i've wondered so long, and am old enough, that maybe i already did and you answered; sorry if so. [i'm a mostly retired recording engineer, some of it studio, more of it location classical dates, with occasional live sound to fill in]

Thank you! What I did there late in the run was simply a mistake in hindsight, as pointed out earlier. Instead of doing the right thing, which would have been to leave myself plenty of options going three rails from the 10 to the 12, i.e. the standard positional shot to the diamond on the side rail above the side pocket, I figured I'd play tight position in the end pattern (which backfired partly because I got sharked on one of the last couple of shots, something one can't see on the video, but deservedly so, IMO, because I should have gone the "imprecise" route to begin with - I'd have had plenty of insurance in form of the 3 and even the 9 if I'd misjudged the speed on that positional shot I avoided, plus the 8 on the foot rail to drop on next in case I'd ended up with an iffy, i.e. off-straight angle).

(1) This is very confusing, as if YT had a mind of its own. Is the link correct now (it never goes to the start of the video for me, regardless of what I do)?

(2) Many years ago, I used to build loudspeakers with time alignment and phase-shifting filters (i.e. passive designs with an emphasis on time and phase coherence), and got the moniker from someone at the time, frankly don't remember, but somehow it stuck… Fellow audiophile?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Last edited:

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
David, I haven't watched your run yet, but I look forward to it. Thanks for posting it.

David and Bob, I wonder if audiophiles have a tendency to turn to straight pool for some reason. Here's my home studio rig. I'm a singer/songwriter trying to finish my first album.
 
Last edited:

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
David, I haven't watched your run yet, but I look forward to it. Thanks for posting it.

David and Bob, I wonder if audiophiles have a tendency to turn to straight pool for some reason. Here's my home studio rig. I'm a singer/songwriter trying to finish my first album.

View attachment 448082

Interesting setup you have there!

I've often wondered what it is that makes one a Straight Pool rather than rotational player (although I used to love and play all games, Straight Pool has always been my favorite). I'm a foodie, wine collector, audiophile and music lover, pool player, former language teacher - basically I've taught all of the above in one way or another - so the bottom line may be that Straight Pool players tend to be more patient, more attentive to detail, enjoy (versus merely don't mind) taking their time, tend to have a good memory (seriously, more important in Straight Pool than one might think), don't lose their concentration easily, feel at home in a meditative state of mind. While I love rock, blues, jazz etc., when it comes to Classical music aficionados, one will notice there are those who don't have the nerve to listen to Bruckner symphonies, or Wagner operas (or any opera for that matter), same as there are those who love pool but don't have the nerve to play Straight Pool.

I'd go so far as to claim it's a phenomenon of the modern era that people are increasingly lacking the concentration and stamina (not just for Straight Pool - for anything whatsoever that requires either or both), and that this is the root of all evil, LOL! :grin-devilish:

But there is more - what the game does to the player: Straight Pool isn't primarily about execution, so messing up or losing has a different quality. Missing a tough shot in 9-Ball doesn't hurt nearly as much as wondering if one is at one's wits' end… :p

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Last edited:

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well put, David. I don't think I'd have taken pool seriously if I hadn't come across straight pool. I might have been interested in snooker or 3-cushion if they were popular in the US, but in 30 years I've never played snooker and only tried 3-cushion on a billiards table once. There's just something more beautiful and challenging about being presented with elaborate problems to solve such as in straight pool. Snooker and 3-cushion as well, I suppose.

As for music, I'm a classical fan as well, although I prefer a short and sweet aria to a full-fledged opera, or a sonata to a symphony. You now have me thinking that maybe I'm not as patient as I need to be in order to excel at straight pool. :eek:
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Well put, David. I don't think I'd have taken pool seriously if I hadn't come across straight pool. I might have been interested in snooker or 3-cushion if they were popular in the US, but in 30 years I've never played snooker and only tried 3-cushion on a billiards table once. There's just something more beautiful and challenging about being presented with elaborate problems to solve such as in straight pool. Snooker and 3-cushion as well, I suppose.

As for music, I'm a classical fan as well, although I prefer a short and sweet aria to a full-fledged opera, or a sonata to a symphony. You now have me thinking that maybe I'm not as patient as I need to be in order to excel at straight pool. :eek:

Oh my… Ouch! LOL!

To be honest, I believe it's simply a matter of practice. One important aspect I didn't mention is that Straight Pool players are people who recognize and appreciate the variation in repetition, that is, subtlety. Maybe that is why I thought of Bruckner. As long as one perceives the repetitiveness of his musical structures, one's appreciation of his music depends on the state of mind one is in (meditative versus impatient - a simplification of matters). Once one allows the subtle changes to sink in, appreciates the subtlety of variation, one's state will be one of meditative curiosity: the appreciation of (versus the search for) the constantly new.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, maybe I'll add listening to Bruckner symphonies as practice for my pool game. :wink:
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Well, maybe I'll add listening to Bruckner symphonies as practice for my pool game. :wink:

LOL! Let me know how that goes! ;)

Having said that, the older I get, the more I appreciate the state of mind Straight Pool puts me in (versus "the game itself" - although I personally believe that this is the game itself). And I believe there's a direct relation to high runs, or at least qualitatively superior (technically cleaner pattern play) ones.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Who's the strongest modern player today? Schmidt? Thorsten? Mika? I've always wondered who's the top dog to beat.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

Not sure, but of the three you mention, my favorite to watch is Thorsten Hohmann, and I'll tell you why:

1. Mika Immonen is an awesome shotmaker, has great rhythm, a smooth stroke, but he tends to go into the balls too often (= too early, sometimes before he's cleaned out the areas into which he breaks out more balls), and he'll shoot at a white flag when so inclined. Don't get me wrong, he's an incredibly talented player, but there's a fine line between genius and insanity. Very few have such a deep-seated aversion to losing, but psychologically this isn't always conducive to making the right decisions. When Mika gets going, he's unstoppable and a joy to watch, but he'll get down on himself easily when things aren't going his way, and, worse yet, occasionally throw in the towel well before it's over. And one of the reasons things aren't always going his way is that he won't always take the time to look for the easiest pattern, in particular ones that afford options, offer insurance ball scenarios etc. Needless to say I'm glad for him that he finally won the World's, but to be honest, he's been one of the handful usual suspects to win it for years, no more, no less…

2. John Schmidt is another awesome shotmaker, not as fluid and smooth as Mika, but he'll get the job done. He has great love and knowledge of the game, and is one of the few who practices the game enough to have his own unique style that allows him to improvise and sometimes come up with solutions that afford options where others try to fit the proverbial camel through the eye of a needle. He's a great rhythm player who's a joy to watch and who will run a lot of balls not only in no time, but without wasting too much mental energy (efficiency is even more conducive to running a lot of balls than pace). But, and this is a great but, he does tend to manufacture (such as bump into place) break balls late in the rack, and in general leaves himself a higher percentage of end patterns, in particular choice of and position on key balls, that require feel and speed control, the kind where in the long run even the greatest player is going leave himself too much or too little angle on a break shot.

I call these end-pattern strategies "play position" versus "have position". Watching great modern-day Straight Pool players, I'm often reminded of something I tell students instructing: an end pattern is truly fool-proof only when one would dare to hand one's cue to a beginner and have him or her shoot the final stop shots on the key-to-the-key and key balls for perfect shape on the break ball (= the "tic tac toe" end patterns of some of the all-time greatest "old-timers"). Continually leaving oneself end patterns that require perfect execution, i.e. knowledge, feel, speed control etc., it's true one will hone one's improvisation skills, and some will opine that historically, more than a handful undisputed Straight Pool champions such as Steve Mizerak and prior to him all-around champions like Luther Lassiter (one of the greatest shotmakers of all time) used to have a comparatively carefree approach to the game, one that one might say mentally lends itself to running a lot of balls (as e.g. John Schmidt believes).

Even so, I'd insist one is an even greater player (or at least competitor) if one is able to never leave the table on a miss (= if I could travel in time, I would want to take lessons with the likes of an Irving Crane etc.).

It's sometimes been said of the great old-timers that they had greater all-around knowledge of the game than today's players, but I've always thought what they did was to create an illusion of control by keeping the game more simple: the art of knowing all about comparatively little. Much of that simplicity, upon closer inspection, was based on remarkably repetitive pattern play - at least that's the way I remember it watching e.g. Willie Mosconi.

3. Thorsten Hohmann is another player who was an uncanny shotmaker in his youth, and who still has the eye and the stroke to overcome problem situations/the occasional tough shot, but he's also matured into a more complete Straight Pool player than perhaps anyone still competing today. Apart from his infamous supercharged draw-uptable-and-back break shots (that I've seen backfire more than once), one rarely sees him do anything remotely "wild", let alone pick the wrong shot or make mental mistakes. Shooting one's way out of trouble is more important in Straight Pool challenges than competition, where it pays off to keep out of trouble finding the easiest patterns, and know one's limits, that is, never shoot a shot one could miss. So Hohmann may not be a greater high-run candidate than his peers, but he's probably the most consistent and on average toughest to beat in tournament play - and that, to me, makes him the greatest of the three you've listed.

Needless to say, these are only my two cents's worth! While I love watching Straight Pool, I'll admit I prefer to watch players I figure I might learn from (e.g. Jim Rempe) to ones who keep shooting (and making!) balls I'd not even consider in my wildest dreams (e.g. Oliver Ortmann when he was younger). Having said that, I do love watching players whose style would be impossible to emulate even if one tried (e.g. Efren Reyes) - but the real entertainment in Straight Pool is not to watch, but play it…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Last edited:

gpieler

New member
Hi Everyone, from Hungary!!!

My name is Gery and i consider myself as a 14.1 pool enthusiast. (Highest run: 126(training), 75 and out(tournament))

The discussion is very interesting in a many ways. So here is my thoughts:

1. Modern straight pool style.. IMHO, I don't think this is a real thing. Straight pool haven't changed since i don't know. (i have been playing since 2003) On the contrary 9 and 10 ball pool have changed a lot. This term like "modern straight pool style" comes from the players who are playing more Rotation game. They have to also play 14.1 pool, but they never learned it trully how to play it properly. More big positions, less pattern playing. I think this is a big problem in the game nowadays, everybody plays just rotation... 14.1 will be less and less popular. 8 ball pool is also losing her popularity... What a shame. Of course it's easier to play balls that have order, than use your brain a bit and find patterns.. But comeooon. Straight pool is the queen of the billiard games. (I always ask a player, that What's your highest run in straight pool? To determine his/her level)

2. Old school style: I should name it like: Straight pool style. Thinking, creativity, keep it simple as possible, patterns, short positions, split just a few balls at one break shot, controlled break shots, two ways shots, safety balls, key-to-key balls, key balls, end patterns etc. The only way we should play straight pool. This is the key and true art of Straight pool, and that's why i f.ing love it. You have to learn this way from a book or an instructor or a pro player.

3. Few words about my style: i consider myself an Old School style. I pay a lot of attention for the patterns. Controlled breaks, sometimes softer and sometimes harder, it depends on the angle and my confidence. I play with Short positions. Always check the cluster before the opening, and i try to determine where the balls will go after the hit. End pattern should be just stop shots. Keep the other player from the table, and build as big run as possible. IMHO the key is to practice as much as possible, and think outside of the Rotational-game-box :D Try out everything that can come up your mind, find other ways than usual.

What has helped me a lot in the last years, was the book from Phil Capelle, named Play Your Best Straight Pool. It has absolutely terrific ideas, principles and it's very thorough. I highly recommend it, if somebody wants to learn to play Straight Pool.

Greeting from Hungary!!

Make Straight Pool Popular Again :grin::grin:
 
Last edited:

Cleveland Kid

Registered
They don't skid, for one thing. Seriously, no misses due to bad contacts whatsoever, pretty cool, that!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

I think the old style cloth and balls is A huge difference from today's cloth and balls as far as spreading out the balls after break shots etc.. Today I ran 74 balls on an old style nap cloth table with brutal tight rails. You must break a open and do so 3-4 times to get through most racks as balls don't spread all over like they do with today's fast cloth, rails and balls. On the old cloth try a break shot off the bottom rail to open a rack and you don't get the boomerang kick off the rail like the newer tables. This forces you to play shape continuously throughout the rack to break it open 3 maybe 4 times. Stroke pushes the balls around without the advantage of very responsive rails to increase speed. I think today's top players have a little advantage as when they open a rack most balls seem to open up perhaps making runs easier as balls are re less wide open opposed to the older style tables and cloth. All the players new and old equipment still need a high skill level to run balls.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No wonder e.g. the high run on the 10-foot table (shared by Crane and Mosconi, apparently or rather, miraculously - I've always wondered how this could be) is 309…

David, 309 = 22 racks + 1 ball. Looks like you are in good company! They had the same problem you mentioned.
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
David, 309 = 22 racks + 1 ball. Looks like you are in good company! They had the same problem you mentioned.

I know!! It's the coincidence that's flabbergasting - how could they both share the same number, i.e. high run? Not sure anyone knows what happened, although the reasons are bound to be the usual, such as that a player gets straight-in on the break shot etc. That they both, like I tend to so miserably at times, got no or missed a tough shot after the break shot - I find that hard to believe: after all, they were pro players in their prime, were they not?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Top