200+ ball runs, a recent embarrassment of riches

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I've noticed over the last few years the frequency of 200 ball runs in these challenges has increased quite a bit. In fact high runs overall, seem to be much higher than the early years.

I remember in the late 2000's sweating a 150 ball run by John Schmidt, hoping he'd reach 200, only to break down at 168. We had a bunch of almosts for a long time up until Darren Appleton seemingly opened the floodgates in 2013 by running 200 and out. Since then we've had, Evgeny Stalev's 200+ run (150 and out plus continuation) and at the DCC challenge we've seen Mika Immonen, Lee Van Corteza, Jayson Shaw, Chris Melling, 197 and 210 from Dennis Orcullo and 197 from Alex Pagualyan.

So for those of you who have attended these events, what do you think changed? Is it just a result of the increased 14.1 play over the last 11 years? Sharing of information? Playing conditions? Cheqio?

I was also wondering if Darren Appleton's initial 200+ run meant that there wasn't that pressure of trying to be the first player to run 200+ in competition? Or at least on video. Kind of in the same way that a 147 in snooker isn't really a historic achievement anymore, but rather a rite of passage for professionals.
 

NastyNate13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a young guy, who recently got into pool roughly 3 years ago. From what I've watched on YouTube and paid for in streams, I think it's straight guts and ball pocketing. The guys of old (in my opinion) played simplistic, rudimentary patterns, and have conservative styles. Newer players (i.e Chris Melling) pocket balls with warp speed and drive into the stack with power. More willing to take risks


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Marop

14.1 - real pool
Silver Member
I believe the main reason is due to the growth in popularity of DCC Challenge. In the early years of the challenge we only had at most 28 entries. Steady growth each year with a record 75 this year. When the players are waiting their turn or just hanging around the room they are constantly gaining straight pool knowledge especially the great rotation players that have had very little straight pool experience.

Jayson's 227 a few years back seemed to open the flood gates. Mika followed it up with a 224 in short time. Ever since we have had a 200 plus and a few 197 -198's each year. We get new players that give it a go so the talent level keeps rising. The conditions have something to do with it as Diamond supplies the tables with new cloth at the start of the event and we clean the tables 5 or 6 times a day. Aramith has been a sponser of the event since Dennis and I took it over and donates new, top of the line Tournament Edition balls along with their money. Freshly cleaned balls before each attempt if the player so desires.

Players like Orcullo, Shaw and Kiamco basically learned the game right in front of our eyes. We're making some changes next year so more attempts might be in the works. This was the first year that we offered $1000 bonus if Jayson's record 227 was broken and the players were biting at the bullet to get back to the table. When Orcullo scratched on the break shot when the 211th ball went in he was devastated and exhausted. When Melling got straight in on the break shot at 224 he felt the same way. It's turned into a major event for the players.

-Bill
 
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Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Good times to be a straight pool fan


The most epic of game that you don't need anyone to play with you to enjoy yourself

It will always be my favorite pocket game
 
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Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I believe the main reason is due to the growth in popularity of DCC Challenge. In the early years of the challenge we only had at most 28 entries. Steady growth each year with a record 75 this year. When the players are waiting their turn or just hanging around the room they are constantly gaining straight pool knowledge especially the great rotation players that have had very little straight pool experience.

Jayson's 227 a few years back seemed to open the flood gates. Mika followed it up with a 224 in short time. Ever since we have had a 200 plus and a few 197 -198's each year. We get new players that give it a go so the talent level keeps rising. The conditions have something to do with it as Diamond supplies the tables with new cloth at the start of the event and we clean the tables 5 or 6 times a day. Aramith has been a sponser of the event since Dennis and I took it over and donates new, top of the line Tournament Edition balls along with their money. Freshly cleaned balls before each attempt if the player so desires.

Players like Orcullo, Shaw and Kiamco basically learned the game right in front of our eyes. We're making some changes next year so more attempts might be in the works. This was the first year that we offered $1000 bonus if Jayson's record 227 was broken and the players were biting at the bullet to get back to the table. When Orcullo scratched on the break shot when the 211th ball went in he was devastated and exhausted. When Melling got straight in on the break shot at 224 he felt the same way. It's turned into a major event for the players.

-Bill

That's really cool, thanks for this. I remember when it was started and its great to see that it's continuing to grow. I think in the early days players were qualifying for the later stages without even a hundred ball run. Now it seems like you need to be a truly elite player to qualify. Stepping up and running 180+ like that is pretty awesome.

I wonder how long until we see 300+? It has to be coming at some point.
 

NastyNate13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's really cool, thanks for this. I remember when it was started and its great to see that it's continuing to grow. I think in the early days players were qualifying for the later stages without even a hundred ball run. Now it seems like you need to be a truly elite player to qualify. Stepping up and running 180+ like that is pretty awesome.



I wonder how long until we see 300+? It has to be coming at some point.



John Schmidt's 366 ball run is quite exceptional. Done barely over in an hour and a half (at Marop's place)


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Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Yes and been available to the public for months, on YouTube I've watched it several times now
 

arcstats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As a big fan of straight pool, I agree with everything that has been posted here. However the support shown by the pros at the DCC needs to crossover into the established 14.1 tournaments on the schedule. The 3 big ones last year - the U.S. Straight Pool Championship (held in April in Connecticut), the World Straight Pool Championship (held in September in NYC) and the American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship (held in October in Virginia) failed to draw a full field. None of them. I find that somewhat baffling because you play a lot of pool in these events compared to a double elimination rotation or 8 ball tournament. This participation trend must change.

Granted these tournaments can be a long grind for players who go deep. They start with 6 man flights for round robin play, which then sets up a bracket format for usually half the field, followed with races to 150 and up. From a fans perspective, these tournaments are great for the entertainment and educational experience.

Hopefully the participation levels at this year's DCC George Fels qualifying action will bode well for these tournaments in 2017. I urge all professional players to support these events, especially those who are just getting involved with this discipline. The purses for these events are solid by todays standards. I believe the success of all 14.1 tournaments are an essential part of rebuilding the overall USA professional tournament scene. Remember, there was a time when the World Pocket Billiards Championship was shown on ABC's Wide World of Sports. With 4 major 24-7 sports channels, I can see the day when events like these make it to those platforms. And full support for these tournaments would be a start.
 

Marop

14.1 - real pool
Silver Member
As a big fan of straight pool, I agree with everything that has been posted here. However the support shown by the pros at the DCC needs to crossover into the established 14.1 tournaments on the schedule. The 3 big ones last year - the U.S. Straight Pool Championship (held in April in Connecticut), the World Straight Pool Championship (held in September in NYC) and the American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship (held in October in Virginia) failed to draw a full field. None of them. I find that somewhat baffling because you play a lot of pool in these events compared to a double elimination rotation or 8 ball tournament. This participation trend must change.



Granted these tournaments can be a long grind for players who go deep. They start with 6 man flights for round robin play, which then sets up a bracket format for usually half the field, followed with races to 150 and up. From a fans perspective, these tournaments are great for the entertainment and educational experience.

Hopefully the participation levels at this year's DCC George Fels qualifying action will bode well for these tournaments in 2017. I urge all professional players to support these events, especially those who are just getting involved with this discipline. The purses for these events are solid by todays standards. I believe the success of all 14.1 tournaments are an essential part of rebuilding the overall USA professional tournament scene. Remember, there was a time when the World Pocket Billiards Championship was shown on ABC's Wide World of Sports. With 4 major 24-7 sports channels, I can see the day when events like these make it to those platforms. And full support for these tournaments would be a start.


The problem is economics. The players are already at the Derby so no additional travel and lodging expense. Entry fee is much less at our event and they're playing for similiar money. Melling made $8000 this year.

I enjoy going to the World Tournament probably more than anybody but I can see the problem from the players view.

-Bill
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcstats View Post
As a big fan of straight pool, I agree with everything that has been posted here. However the support shown by the pros at the DCC needs to crossover into the established 14.1 tournaments on the schedule. The 3 big ones last year - the U.S. Straight Pool Championship (held in April in Connecticut), the World Straight Pool Championship (held in September in NYC) and the American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship (held in October in Virginia) failed to draw a full field. None of them. I find that somewhat baffling because you play a lot of pool in these events compared to a double elimination rotation or 8 ball tournament. This participation trend must change.



Granted these tournaments can be a long grind for players who go deep. They start with 6 man flights for round robin play, which then sets up a bracket format for usually half the field, followed with races to 150 and up. From a fans perspective, these tournaments are great for the entertainment and educational experience.

Hopefully the participation levels at this year's DCC George Fels qualifying action will bode well for these tournaments in 2017. I urge all professional players to support these events, especially those who are just getting involved with this discipline. The purses for these events are solid by todays standards. I believe the success of all 14.1 tournaments are an essential part of rebuilding the overall USA professional tournament scene. Remember, there was a time when the World Pocket Billiards Championship was shown on ABC's Wide World of Sports. With 4 major 24-7 sports channels, I can see the day when events like these make it to those platforms. And full support for these tournaments would be a start.

The problem is economics. The players are already at the Derby so no additional travel and lodging expense. Entry fee is much less at our event and they're playing for similiar money. Melling made $8000 this year.

I enjoy going to the World Tournament probably more than anybody but I can see the problem from the players view.

-Bill

I agree with Bill. Our tournament is lucky in that the players are already here and have already paid for their lodgings.

Peter Burrows is doing something similar in scheduling his American 14.1 Tournament right before the US Open in an attempt to cut down on the player's traveling expenses. It has worked beautifully for them the last few years. He should have had a full field last year. I know he was turning people away based upon the commitments that he had, but some of them did not show up. I expect this event to continue to flourish.

The World Tournament has been going for over 10 years in its new incarnation, but those New York expenses can put a dent in the players wallets. Since a few major sponsors pulled out, the money is not great, either. I don't think anything was really added last year and with a $500+ entry and associated expenses, it is hard to draw all but the die hard straight pool enthusiasts.

The US Open Straight Pool was resurrected again last year. I think the added money was not that great. It had a respectable showing for the first year back. I don't know that the money is any better this year. I hope it does well.

In addition to having players already here, our event is 100% added. No hidden green fees. No buy-backs counted in the added. We received $15,150.00 in sponsor's and patron's money this year and that money was added to every cent of the 75 entries, to give us a payout of $22,650.00. There are no expenses as everyone working the event is a volunteer. It is not a business model that can be duplicated as most businesses have to make a profit. It's the best deal by far for the players at Derby. The Europeans and Filipinos have known it for years. The Americans, not so much. We hope to add $20,000.00 next year. All contributions, whether in money or labor are welcome.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... The US Open Straight Pool was resurrected again last year. I think the added money was not that great. It had a respectable showing for the first year back. I don't know that the money is any better this year. I hope it does well. ...

The US Open Straight Pool Championship would seem to be well placed to get a good turnout. The SBE is March 30 - April 2, Appleton's World Pool Series event in NYC is April 5-8, and the US Open is April 10-14. And it's only about 125 miles from NYC to Windsor Locks, CT.

The added money is $10,000 again, apparently regardless of turnout (kudos to CSI).

But we're only 7 weeks away from April 10 now, and the CSI "Current Entries" list shows only 1 entry so far -- Dudanets -- whereas the Appleton event shows 87 entries so far (many of whom are top-notch 14.1 players). Seems like the potential exists for the US Open 14.1 to do much better than last year (just 20 entries); let's hope that happens.
 

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My father, who is a huge 14.1 fan opines that the reason we are seeing such high runs is due to the faster cloth. Even though he admits the top players back in his day who played on slower cloth were able to run run 100s on any given night, it was rare to see them run 150+. so maybe the cloth does have something to do with it.

on a side note, even though I'm a low level league player, my wish is to enter the US Open 14.1 one day. I just have to get to that level of play first.
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
The US Open Straight Pool Championship would seem to be well placed to get a good turnout. The SBE is March 30 - April 2, Appleton's World Pool Series event in NYC is April 5-8, and the US Open is April 10-14. And it's only about 125 miles from NYC to Windsor Locks, CT.

The added money is $10,000 again, apparently regardless of turnout (kudos to CSI).

But we're only 7 weeks away from April 10 now, and the CSI "Current Entries" list shows only 1 entry so far -- Dudanets -- whereas the Appleton event shows 87 entries so far (many of whom are top-notch 14.1 players). Seems like the potential exists for the US Open 14.1 to do much better than last year (just 20 entries); let's hope that happens.

I hope they do well. We could use another straight pool event on the calendar.

I will be curious to see exactly how much is actually added. I know "greens fees" are subtracted and also monies generated by the qualifiers becomes part of the "added". I was asked about this by some of the players when we had a qualifier last year. They were not real happy about it and I doubt we will do one this year. Some players don't think there is enough actually added. You are good at crunching numbers. You ought to see what was added to the monies of the players in the tournament and the players in the qualifiers to the prize fund.

The entry fee is down $50 to $550 so that may help.
 
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alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been avoiding all my 200 ball runs because I don't want it to look like I'm bragging.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I hope they do well. We could use another straight pool event on the calendar.

I will be curious to see exactly how much is actually added. I know "greens fees" are subtracted and also monies generated by the qualifiers becomes part of the "added". I was asked about this by some of the players when we had a qualifier last year. They were not real happy about it and I doubt we will do one this year. Some players don't think there is enough actually added. You are good at crunching numbers. You ought to see what was added to the monies of the players in the tournament and the players in the qualifiers to the prize fund.

The entry fee is down $50 to $550 so that may help.

Last year the entry fee was $600, entrants numbered 20, and the total prize fund was $20,700.

From one viewpoint, that means the added money was $20,700 - 20 x $600 = $8,700.

But from CSI's viewpoint, the added money was $10,000 on top of entry fees net of "registration and green fees." Player money, then, accounted for $10,700 of the prize fund, or $535 for each of the 20 entrants. So, apparently, $65 was deducted from each $600 entry fee to cover registration and green fees.

I suppose entry fees from each qualifier could have been higher or lower than the $600 needed to fund the winner's entry fee. I do not know how either of those situations was handled and how it affected the prize fund.

This year, as you note, the entry fee has been lowered to $550. I do not know what will be deducted for registration and green fees, but I imagine this year's $10,000 of added money will again be on top of the net figure -- entry fees less registration and green fees.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
My father, who is a huge 14.1 fan opines that the reason we are seeing such high runs is due to the faster cloth. Even though he admits the top players back in his day who played on slower cloth were able to run run 100s on any given night, it was rare to see them run 150+. so maybe the cloth does have something to do with it.

on a side note, even though I'm a low level league player, my wish is to enter the US Open 14.1 one day. I just have to get to that level of play first.

I think your father is definitely correct, faster cloth and polished balls helps open the balls up. I've played on slow cloth a lot and the stack just doesn't open as nicely as it does on perfect conditions. I've also played on faster cloth with polished balls and I can see how an accurate stroke, a good angle and a bit of luck will spread everything nicely without having to really know the proper way to play the breakshots. Of course, knowledge mixed with good playing conditions are huge assets.

To be fair to the players of yesteryear though, the high run challenges offers far more opportunities for competitive high runs than traditional tournaments.
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
Last year the entry fee was $600, entrants numbered 20, and the total prize fund was $20,700.

From one viewpoint, that means the added money was $20,700 - 20 x $600 = $8,700.

But from CSI's viewpoint, the added money was $10,000 on top of entry fees net of "registration and green fees." Player money, then, accounted for $10,700 of the prize fund, or $535 for each of the 20 entrants. So, apparently, $65 was deducted from each $600 entry fee to cover registration and green fees.

I suppose entry fees from each qualifier could have been higher or lower than the $600 needed to fund the winner's entry fee. I do not know how either of those situations was handled and how it affected the prize fund.

This year, as you note, the entry fee has been lowered to $550. I do not know what will be deducted for registration and green fees, but I imagine this year's $10,000 of added money will again be on top of the net figure -- entry fees less registration and green fees.


Thanks. It is so seldom we get these numbers out in the open.

I know the qualifier at Red Shoes probably generated another $500-$600 towards the added money. I know they had one in Monterey and at least one more out east. One of the guys that was thinking of playing in our qualifier asked if that extra money generated was added onto the added money and I had to explain that no, that became part of the added money. He responded, well then,it isn't really 10,000.00 added, is it?
I'd never had to answer those questions before, but I could see his point.
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
I think your father is definitely correct, faster cloth and polished balls helps open the balls up. I've played on slow cloth a lot and the stack just doesn't open as nicely as it does on perfect conditions. I've also played on faster cloth with polished balls and I can see how an accurate stroke, a good angle and a bit of luck will spread everything nicely without having to really know the proper way to play the breakshots. Of course, knowledge mixed with good playing conditions are huge assets.

To be fair to the players of yesteryear though, the high run challenges offers far more opportunities for competitive high runs than traditional tournaments.

I believe this may be the most decisive factor in all this: opportunity. Players of yesteryear played on slower cloth etc., and yes, I know from personal experience it was tougher, but the fact remains, they didn't have any reason to run balls beyond winning a match or tournament. There were no high run contests, nor was there any money in it with the exception of the bonus for a 150-and-out at the U.S. Open that a Straight Pool aficionado (Randy Miller?) would occasionally put the money up for. Making sure of a game/match or tournament win isn't necessarily conducive to running a lot of balls - quite on the contrary in fact especially on slow cloth. Those were the days when top players tried to never leave the table on a miss - and the very best (by and large the same whom one might expect to have run more balls had the goal been different) were the ones who perfected this strategy.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I believe this may be the most decisive factor in all this: opportunity. Players of yesteryear played on slower cloth etc., and yes, I know from personal experience it was tougher, but the fact remains, they didn't have any reason to run balls beyond winning a match or tournament. There were no high run contests, nor was there any money in it with the exception of the bonus for a 150-and-out at the U.S. Open that a Straight Pool aficionado (Randy Miller?) would occasionally put the money up for. Making sure of a game/match or tournament win isn't necessarily conducive to running a lot of balls - quite on the contrary in fact especially on slow cloth. Those were the days when top players tried to never leave the table on a miss - and the very best (by and large the same whom one might expect to have run more balls had the goal been different) were the ones who perfected this strategy.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

Thank you for your input. Is it safe to say there are more 100+ runs than earlier years? I noticed in your comment that you mentioned that playing to win isn't always conducive to large runs. Since the current crop of players aren't as experienced with safety/tactical play, perhaps this leads to more aggressive play which although lends itself to longer runs, may also provide their opponents more opportunities than in the past.
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Thank you for your input. Is it safe to say there are more 100+ runs than earlier years? I noticed in your comment that you mentioned that playing to win isn't always conducive to large runs. Since the current crop of players aren't as experienced with safety/tactical play, perhaps this leads to more aggressive play which although lends itself to longer runs, may also provide their opponents more opportunities than in the past.

The reason one tends to shoot at a white flag in rotational game disciplines is that no matter how well one plays safe, one's opponent is going to jump or kick and Heaven knows what's going to happen next - know that feeling? It's understandable to an extent: one may start to feel as if the only way to avoid one's opponent to get lucky is to keep them on the chair.

But it's the same mindset that I keep seeing from rotation players at Straight Pool tournaments, where clearly, the reason they react the same way is due to a lack of experience and sometimes patience. They attempt safeties after a player takes the first intentional foul; they'll shoot at a white flag (and are occasionally proven right when they'd really deserve to be punished); they feel forced to try and run out as they're afraid of getting into a tactical safety exchange. It's a totally different game I'm seeing these days, with guys exchanging run after run, invariably handing the table over on a miss, until one reaches the finish line, with no safety attempted except when they get stuck in the rack.

As to your question on 100+ runs, we'd be strictly referring to tournament play, as there were no high-run contests. I'm not sure much has changed beyond what one would have to factor in terms of equipment change figures. The truth is, Straight Pool was their daily bread, same as rotation games are now. The grand (tournament) average could be mind-boggling, most famously of course Mosconi's. I mean, who could one hire today one could rely on running 100+ in exhibition (literally: advertised, announced, and if not always on the first try, still never failed to do so…)?

I remember Nick Varner once related that story that from the day onwards he first ran three digits, he did so every day of his life. Most top Straight Pool players from the in-between era relate the same (Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Hopkins, Martin, West etc. & etc.). And we're already talking past the golden era there: railbirds confirm Michael Eufemia ran 200 in practice every single night, usually on the first attempt, and most of reported runs that are 400+ (some claimed to be higher than Mosconi's official record, including another of his own) were before then. Daily bread - all the difference!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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