Examaning shaft straightness and theory

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
Ok so how many times does shaft "straightness" end a cue deal? Yeah it has a taper roll, or whatever you want to term it. Have you ever thought about shafts and what really happens when you lay them flat on the table? Or even rolling them on the rail.

The model I am using is an .840 diameter at the collar, .510 at the tip, with an 8 inch pro taper. After that taper its a clear shot to the joint OD.

First you need to realize that the shaft straightness is measured from center of the shaft. The end diameters and the need to be concentric within the center line of the wood. So if you eld a shaft in a straight position you would see a gap of approximately a little over an 1/8 to a little under 3/16. This would be how much the tip was set back off the OD of the joint collar.

Now imagine that you let the nose (tip) drop.. what would happen? Most people think that the whole shaft should rest on the table. Is that what really happens? No it's not.. When you drop the nose it is .325 degrees of a drop to touch the tip to the edge of the .840 joint diameter to have them on the same plane. The center comes off the table.. how much do you think on this theoretical shaft is off the table in the center? It's actually .031. That's a 1/32 raise off the table in the center of a PERFECT shaft. Now I used a straight taper.. what happens when you start putting curves and "parabolics", etc.. It's going to get more in somce cases.

What stays on the table in theory? The joint edge, and the tip. That's it.... The only way the entire shaft should be flat on the table is if the .840 diameter is a straight shot to the .510 diameter, it's the only time, theoretically that this would occur.

How come this cannot be seen so easily.. well you're dealing with cloth, that's nappy so this has "height" to hide some of the flaw. I would imagine that the only time you could see this is on a grinding table, maybe with good magnification.

Remember this next time you are looking at cues and you think you're getting a warped shaft.

JV
 

CMD

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What if you roll a shaft on a pool table and you see light under the shaft, then no light under the shaft and finally light under the shaft? Especially within 12 inches of the tip?
 

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
What if you roll a shaft on a pool table and you see light under the shaft, then no light under the shaft and finally light under the shaft? Especially within 12 inches of the tip?

Then it's not concentric, ie, warped. IMHO a shaft can also be over sanded in a particular area and show as a "bow". IMHO if you have consistant light showing the shaft is probably be holding concentricity. When you roll a shaft and you see excessive light change, there is something amiss. But what if you roll a shaft and the tip end stays on the table within reason and then collar end also doesn't move but somewhere in the middle of the shaft you do get gap fluctuations and light change? What causes this? IMHO it woud have to be man made. If the shaft was concentric to start with and worked its way out it would almost have to affect the ends in some manner.

I think we have all seen really bad wobblers. It's the tweeners that need some explaining. When a shaft really bows excessively and you roll it you can really see the tip forcing up the middle of the shaft then 180 later the tip comes off the table. It's pretty obvious at that point.

JV
 

jayman

Hi Mom!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ok so how many times does shaft "straightness" end a cue deal? Yeah it has a taper roll, or whatever you want to term it. Have you ever thought about shafts and what really happens when you lay them flat on the table? Or even rolling them on the rail.

The model I am using is an .840 diameter at the collar, .510 at the tip, with an 8 inch pro taper. After that taper its a clear shot to the joint OD.

First you need to realize that the shaft straightness is measured from center of the shaft. The end diameters and the need to be concentric within the center line of the wood. So if you eld a shaft in a straight position you would see a gap of approximately a little over an 1/8 to a little under 3/16. This would be how much the tip was set back off the OD of the joint collar.

Now imagine that you let the nose (tip) drop.. what would happen? Most people think that the whole shaft should rest on the table. Is that what really happens? No it's not.. When you drop the nose it is .325 degrees of a drop to touch the tip to the edge of the .840 joint diameter to have them on the same plane. The center comes off the table.. how much do you think on this theoretical shaft is off the table in the center? It's actually .031. That's a 1/32 raise off the table in the center of a PERFECT shaft. Now I used a straight taper.. what happens when you start putting curves and "parabolics", etc.. It's going to get more in somce cases.

What stays on the table in theory? The joint edge, and the tip. That's it.... The only way the entire shaft should be flat on the table is if the .840 diameter is a straight shot to the .510 diameter, it's the only time, theoretically that this would occur.

How come this cannot be seen so easily.. well you're dealing with cloth, that's nappy so this has "height" to hide some of the flaw. I would imagine that the only time you could see this is on a grinding table, maybe with good magnification.

Remember this next time you are looking at cues and you think you're getting a warped shaft.

JV

If it is straight and round... nothing will wobble when rolled on a flat surface. The taper does not make any difference of any kind. You can very easily evaluate a shaft by rolling it on a flat surface.

I will add that shafts of quality are made from wood which is prone to some minor movement. if its all fukked up you can tell... if it's not just great but O.K you can tell... and if it needs a new shaft.....You can tell.
 
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ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
I think it isn't a problem with wood but a problem with expectations. Players expect perfectly straight straight shafts that stay perfectly straight forever. Its impossible. Yes, there are cues that are straight....today. Tomorrow, it may have a little movement. Then, back to straight. Environment plays such a big roll in how a shaft rolls. Cue makers do everything they can to prevent it but no one is 100%.

As stated, the best way to tell is to roll the shaft by itself or spin it between centers. If it spins straight but doesn't roll perfect when on the butt, there is a problem somewhere else. Could be the face, insert/threads, butt is warped, or the pin is not concentric or bent.
 

scsuxci

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What if you roll a shaft on a pool table and you see light under the shaft, then no light under the shaft and finally light under the shaft? Especially within 12 inches of the tip?
I totally agree with this statement.Rolling the cue together won't give you the proper reading on just the shaft specially if one side of the shaft collar might be off just a hair on one side when on the butt and now the whole cue rolls like shit.But when I roll the shaft separate and that light is not consistent then the shaft is warped to whatever degree.I've read alot of stuff on this forum that a dead nuts shaft doesn't exist or very rare and all this weather stuff that takes effect on the wood but I have a hard time grasping this.I live in Canada where the weather is super humid,to blistering cold and everything in between but my cues goes from my house to my car to the poolhall and back home.If my shafts warped cause of that then the shaftwood is crap.I've have Predator shafts that are 15 years old and are pin straight on a lathe or on a table with no fluddering when rolled.I'm beginning to think that providing excuses to why a shaft may roll bad is just a way for the customer to except a sub par product without feeling so bad.
 

ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
I've read alot of stuff on this forum that a dead nuts shaft doesn't exist or very rare and all this weather stuff that takes effect on the wood but I have a hard time grasping this.

How many shafts have you made, owned, or rolled? If you base this opinion off of your small sample, then it holds little merit. Some shafts do stay straight but the majority show some movement.

I also think when people imagine a "warped" shaft, they are thinking of one that flops like a fish. Here is a pic of my rolling table. Eye level, no rails. Not much can get by me.

rolling table.JPG
 

OneIron

On the snap, Vinny!
Silver Member
Great post. It's always interesting to me to manually turn a shaft in my lathe and check the runout at the tip. I originally had issues with lathe pins not being concentric but I purchased a set from Unique Products and they're almost dead on. Most of the Predator shafts have almost zero runout (unless they've been abused). Same with Mezz. Considering the fact that a pro taper is not a straight line from joint to tip, you would expect to see some daylight when rolling on a flat surface. :cool:
 

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
If it is straight and round... nothing will wobble when rolled on a flat surface. The taper does not make any difference of any kind. You can very easily evaluate a shaft by rolling it on a flat surface.

I will add that shafts of quality are made from wood which is prone to some minor movement. if its all fukked up you can tell... if it's not just great but O.K you can tell... and if it needs a new shaft.....You can tell.

If its concentric and all perfect you should see the same light when rolling the shaft. it's a fact that based on geometry the shaft has areas that do not touch the table. I think this is inherent in every shaft. I think Ryan hit the nail on the head and it's expectations, and some falsehoods that have been around forever that have people think the way they do.

In reality, if the first 8-10 inches is concentric with the collar, (or rest of the cue when assembled) what happens in between is inconsequential to a large degree.

JV
 

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
The quest for perfection is a noble cause.
As cue-makers, we strive for it everyday even though we know that it does not exist.
Shafts are no exception. We try to make them perfect.
The reality is that we know we're working with an organic mtrl that can move at will.
Wood moves and it does so whenever it feels like it.
Got rain in your future? Guaranteed, your shaft will move.
Going from Wisconsin to Texas? Guaranteed, your shaft will move.

Here's the thing that I find so ironic.
Players and cue buyers in general, want (dare I say demand) shafts that are perfectly
straight and are guaranteed to stay straight forever (I see Ryan has already stated this)
yet their stroke can easily be off by an 1/8" to 1/4". In their mind, the only reason
they're not on the Pro-Tour is because their shaft has a 'taper-roll'.
It's easy to blame the equipment because it certainly can't be the player.
Their stroke is perfect, their game is perfect so it clearly can't be their fault.
It must be the equipment, specifically their shaft that has .015/.030" roll-out.
In this scenario, it's the arrow not the Indian.

The fact is, we build cues/shafts as perfectly as the wood allows.
We take every precaution. We take exorbitant amounts of time btwn cuttings/turnings.
We season the wood, sometimes for many years and still the wood can move.
What's up???
A lot of it has to do with where the shaft was made vs where it is now.
All the good Maple is in the North; Wisc., Mich., Up State NY, Canada & etc.
That's where it was grown and that's where it likes it. That's generally where it's
seasoned also.
This region provides a comfortable environment for the wood. It feels like home.
The problems start when the wood is subjected to climates that are unfamiliar.
If the climate is drier, the wood will give-up more moisture. It's a continuation of
the seasoning process which means that the wood is subject to more movement.
That's unfortunate because the shaft is already built and cut to size.
When the cue/shaft is sent to a more humid climate, it can start to absorb moisture.
Again, the shaft is subject to move.

This give & take phenomena with moisture can last the entire life of the shaft
though it does tend to subside with age but there are no guarantees.
My advise would be to learn how to straighten your shaft.
If you do nothing, your shaft will move to where it wants to be, given it's environment.
It's your job to convince it to stay where you put it.

KJ
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Joe,
I know you mainly deal with older collectible cues and it must drive you crazy when buyers expect them to roll perfect. Very few shafts are perfectly straight. Even brand new shafts are rarely perfect. I think there should be a tolerance that would be acceptable, but no one can agree on what that would be. I heard some old timers say on brand new cues if it had more than a business card of wobble in the shaft that it was too much. So some had a reasonable tolerance expectation 30 years ago, but today we do not have such.
 

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
Joe,
I know you mainly deal with older collectible cues and it must drive you crazy when buyers expect them to roll perfect. Very few shafts are perfectly straight. Even brand new shafts are rarely perfect. I think there should be a tolerance that would be acceptable, but no one can agree on what that would be. I heard some old timers say on brand new cues if it had more than a business card of wobble in the shaft that it was too much. So some had a reasonable tolerance expectation 30 years ago, but today we do not have such.

Chris,
I feel the same as you, very few shafts would ever be called perfect. New ones, old ones, etc.. and you're right there has to be a reasonable tolerance expectation and acceptance. But I know what I am looking at and I am reasonable, however since I buy for resale, sometimes I have to think like my customers and be anal about it. This sucks expecially when I know what the hell I am looking at and know what the reality is.

JV
 

jkblbsl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joe -

I couldn't agree with you more about acceptable rolls. This is a great post about a very touchy subject. I have always allowed that there can be a flutter in a shaft roll and it is still a great shaft. Of course if a shaft looks like it is additioning for a part in a curve ahead sign it is no good. Players can make themselves nuts by rolling a cue every day. Roll it once to insure it is reasonable and leave it alone from there. Managing expectations is maybe the hardest part about making cues.

john
 

scsuxci

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How many shafts have you made, owned, or rolled? If you base this opinion off of your small sample, then it holds little merit. Some shafts do stay straight but the majority show some movement.

I also think when people imagine a "warped" shaft, they are thinking of one that flops like a fish. Here is a pic of my rolling table. Eye level, no rails. Not much can get by me.

View attachment 187615
I've made none and if I did it would be straight,owned hundreds and rolled hundreds from custom to production.Does my opinion have merit,ya I believe so.Most shafts might show movement but to what degree might determine if its a all out warp.When I hear" taper roll",thats a polite way to say its a little warped,and when I hear "won't effect playability"means its worse than the norm,and when I hear" tip doesn't leave the table"I think its probably ****ed.I personally don't believe in the taper roll shit.The cuemaker down here does all the fixings in the greater Toronto area and for Predator and knows his stuff real well and has dealt with thousands of shafts and cues and believe me when it comes down to logistics to a warp, its all about, will it effect my game knowing its there?Don't get me wrong I don't think every shaft that isn't pin straight is junk,but there's a very fine line on whats 'excepted warp' and 'not excepted warp' and that usually depends on which end of the spectrum your on,the "buyer or the seller".Bigger the taper Roll =bigger the warp.Taper Roll is a refined excuse for the customer to except that he just bought a sub-par product without feeling so bad!
 
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danutz

Banned
My .02 is that taper roll has virtually no effect on the playability of a shaft, and if the tip rolls good on the table, the shaft is for all intensive purposes, straight. Even a shaft that has a little lift at the tip will not affect one's game unless you play pro speed. I've chosen floppy house cues over straighter ones many times because it had a better shaped tip, hustlin for cash. Personally, i think the way a shaft hits is more important than how perfectly straight it is.
 

desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My .02 is that taper roll has virtually no effect on the playability of a shaft, and if the tip rolls good on the table, the shaft is for all intensive purposes, straight. Even a shaft that has a little lift at the tip will not affect one's game unless you play pro speed. I've chosen floppy house cues over straighter ones many times because it had a better shaped tip, hustlin for cash. Personally, i think the way a shaft hits is more important than how perfectly straight it is.

I agree with Nuts, but if you are selling a cue, full disclosure of any and all deviations from straight, is a must.

I have been burned many times by sellers failure to mention funky rolls. A shaft with a roll just isn't worth the same as one that is perfect.

Cue makers may take years to complete a shaft but if the grain is tighter on one side or the grain runs out, none of it matters.

AZ needs a system to measure and grade shaft run out and a feedback system for buyers to let others know when a seller fails to mention run out.
 

TheThaiger

Banned
I've made none and if I did it would be straight,owned hundreds and rolled hundreds from custom to production.Does my opinion have merit,ya I believe so.Most shafts might show movement but to what degree might determine if its a all out warp.When I hear" taper roll",thats a polite way to say its a little warped,and when I hear "won't effect playability"means its worse than the norm,and when I hear" tip doesn't leave the table"I think its probably ****ed.

:D

Nice one!!
 

TheThaiger

Banned
I have a LD shaft I want to sell for around 100 bucks. Neither the joint nor the tip leaves the bed at all, but rolling it on the table I can see light changes pretty much down the whole of the shaft.

So what do I advertise it as - warped, taper roll - slight or major?, or straight?
 
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