Learn "Center ball" cuts first?

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Does everyone agree that a new player should learn how to cut and aim with vertical (center ball) cue ball? Adding English to aid the cut should come later. I play with a 70 year old guy that is really a great player but center ball is not even imaginable to him. He constantly shows me how a tip of aiding English makes the cut object ball roll with zero spin to the hole. But, my teacher says he doesn't really care how the OB is spinning as long as it goes into the pocket. He agrees it takes a little bit thinner cut to pocket the ball but the world is now open to the "center ball or vertical" player. Any thoughts?
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd say listen to the 70 year old guy you play with, and get rid of your teacher. Imagine a bank shot, as opposed to a cut shot,,,,,,,, no wait, a bank shot and a cut shot are exactly the same, you cut a ball into a hole, or you cut a ball into a rail, so,,,, ask your teacher if he cares what spin is on the object ball on a bank shot. I bet the 70 year old guy banks pretty good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Never listen to these old players. They have accustomed to a playing style that balances out all of their physical and also equipment flaws. They DO bank and pot, but their technique is in no way sound.

You will never learn how to properly play and understand the mechanics of the game, balls and table.

After your proper fundamentals training and ~1 year of proper playing you can start to worry about these intricacies and start applying them.

Cheers,
M

PS: And yes, at slow speeds spin actually changes the OB direction and you can wiggle your way out of a tight pot. But that's something to learn later on.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'd say listen to the 70 year old guy you play with, and get rid of your teacher. Imagine a bank shot, as opposed to a cut shot,,,,,,,, no wait, a bank shot and a cut shot are exactly the same, you cut a ball into a hole, or you cut a ball into a rail, so,,,, ask your teacher if he cares what spin is on the object ball on a bank shot. I bet the 70 year old guy banks pretty good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You would be correct, he's the best banker of balls I've ever seen. But when you watch his stroke, it's different every time! Lots of little wrist jerks, pops, etc. He plays like a top Phillippino player. How can a lessor player learn from that?
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You would be correct, he's the best banker of balls I've ever seen. But when you watch his stroke, it's different every time! Lots of little wrist jerks, pops, etc. He plays like a top Phillippino player. How can a lessor player learn from that?

The same way other phillipino players do,,,,,It may very well be there is more to learn from this fella by talking than watching.
I have taken professional lessons before and spent a week having a guy try to make my stroke replicate his. I feel the better approach is learn how to use what you have in many cases rather than trying to be like someone else. I agree with a smooth straight and repititous stroke, I also believe the use of english is helpful for more than just spinning the cue ball off the rails for positional purposes.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The same way other phillipino players do,,,,,It may very well be there is more to learn from this fella by talking than watching.
I have taken professional lessons before and spent a week having a guy try to make my stroke replicate his. I feel the better approach is learn how to use what you have in many cases rather than trying to be like someone else. I agree with a smooth straight and repititous stroke, I also believe the use of english is helpful for more than just spinning the cue ball off the rails for positional purposes.

No one is saying that using english isn't helpful at times. But, using just center axis is very helpful also. If one always uses some english, they will never learn the advantages of center axis.

What's the point of going to an instructor if you are going to take the attitude that you know more than he does, and are so willing to dismiss what he says and just do things your way?

edit: This should be in "Ask the instructor" forum, not this one. The op should ask the mods to move it.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
No one is saying that using english isn't helpful at times. But, using just center axis is very helpful also. If one always uses some english, they will never learn the advantages of center axis.

What's the point of going to an instructor if you are going to take the attitude that you know more than he does, and are so willing to dismiss what he says and just do things your way?

edit: This should be in "Ask the instructor" forum, not this one. The op should ask the mods to move it.

I apologize but I don't know how to get it moved to the proper topic.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No one is saying that using english isn't helpful at times. But, using just center axis is very helpful also. If one always uses some english, they will never learn the advantages of center axis.

What's the point of going to an instructor if you are going to take the attitude that you know more than he does, and are so willing to dismiss what he says and just do things your way?

edit: This should be in "Ask the instructor" forum, not this one. The op should ask the mods to move it.

Actually Neil I learned alot from the guy that I try and use all the time, but that doesn't mean his stroke is the only way to stroke. Babe Ruth and Willy Mays were pretty good at what they did, but they sure didn't do it the same way.

And, my earlier comments were basically to point out the differences between the old guy who likes to minimize spin on cuts and the teacher who says don't worry about it,,,,,,, banking is the place it's easy to make a point with, therefore I did.

Had it been in the Ask the Instructor forum I would not have any comment .
 
Last edited:

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
No one is saying that using english isn't helpful at times. But, using just center axis is very helpful also. If one always uses some english, they will never learn the advantages of center axis.

What's the point of going to an instructor if you are going to take the attitude that you know more than he does, and are so willing to dismiss what he says and just do things your way?

I agree. I think the greatest compliment an accomplished pool player can receive is when someone describes him as a "vertical" player. Knows how important the tangent line is and uses it.
 

fy1017

Registered
I use to play with a lot of English. That was the way i was thought when I was taking lessons in Korea. Now I hardly use English. I use the vertical axis, normally top for a rolling CB. I have noticed that I am making more of my shot and I am still getting position for my next shot. Shooting with English makes any shot more difficult. Even with a LD shaft you still have to compensate for deflection and if you use BHE you have to know where your pivot point is on your shaft. Too many variables to deal with when spinning the CB. The vertical axis on the CB can give you the same position.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
heres my 2 cents
worth less i am sure
to play vertical axis
sometimes i have to hit he cue ball harder to get the draw to pull the cue ball on the right track
where if i used a 1/2 to 1 tip english i can use a rolling ball and hit softer for more accuracy
instructors what do you think??
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
heres my 2 cents
worth less i am sure
to play vertical axis
sometimes i have to hit he cue ball harder to get the draw to pull the cue ball on the right track
where if i used a 1/2 to 1 tip english i can use a rolling ball and hit softer for more accuracy
instructors what do you think??
I assume you mean you are using a cushion after the object ball. In that case you often get easier position with side spin than a vertical-axis shot.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I assume you mean you are using a cushion after the object ball. In that case you often get easier position with side spin than a vertical-axis shot.
yes i was going to a cushion
thanks for the response
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does everyone agree that a new player should learn how to cut and aim with vertical (center ball) cue ball? Adding English to aid the cut should come later. I play with a 70 year old guy that is really a great player but center ball is not even imaginable to him. He constantly shows me how a tip of aiding English makes the cut object ball roll with zero spin to the hole. But, my teacher says he doesn't really care how the OB is spinning as long as it goes into the pocket. He agrees it takes a little bit thinner cut to pocket the ball but the world is now open to the "center ball or vertical" player. Any thoughts?

I remember back when I was learning the game, the hardest choices I had to make were not what to do on the table but who to listen to and who not to listen to. As a beginner, many people will play better than you and will look impressive to you. While this local player you mentioned may have some gems to share with you, you aren't ready to decipher what information you should accept and what you should reject.

So here's a basic guideline as to who you should listen to and how to progress:

1.) Use sites like YouTube and watch and listen to the pro players. While they may have their own shooting styles, they are successful players who have already done the work of weeding out what doesn't work on the table.

2.) Seek out a reputable teacher. This isn't as easy as it appears. Do your homework as to who to work with. Just because someone has a label of being a teacher, it doesn't mean they are good at what they do. Every profession has those who excel at what they do and those who don't. Ask around. Ask better players who the good teachers are.

3.) Lastly, practice a lot and play a lot of people. Always pay attention when you are playing. Don't faze out and just go through the motions at the table. Walk away from each playing experience having learned something, even if it's one small thing.


Now to answer your question about learning to shoot using vertical center ball. Yes, of course. It's most helpful to be able to find the center of the cue ball so when you need it, you can be secure about finding it. However, when you try to use center ball and you make an error by hitting slightly off-center, the results can vary, depending on the shot and the side of the cue ball that you actually hit by mistake. That's why there's a style of play used by some players to use one tip of side spin on all shots that require center ball to decrease their margin of error. However, this is an advanced technique used by players who know their tendencies, and not necessarily something that should be taught to a new player who is trying to develop a straight and consistent stroke.
 
Last edited:
Top