what could be the cause

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
Well I think step number one is to conclusively prove it does in fact draw the ball like Mike Massey.

The first step in doing that is to use a Rempe ball and see where the chalk mark ended up with both this “Draw Shaft” and a non-unicorn shaft. If the marks line up with both cues, but the draw result is drastically different, then there might be something there. I’m betting the chalk marks won’t line up...

Without doing this test, I don’t care if Mosconi comes back from the grave and claims the cue draws like a unicorn, I’m not buying it;)

Sounds like you have the "If a tree falls in the forest and no one (or you) is around to hear it does it make a sound?" syndrome.

Well in this forrest there were both respected makers and top players who tested the cue. ALL were amazed, perplexed, etc...It happened. Cant change that. Think of ot this way, why would arguably the biggest cue collector in the world "have to have" this cue, buy it, and not put it up for sale even after all these years?...Because they were there and witnessed all the extraordinary claims and as well tested it themselves.. Thats why.
 

jackpot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The most amazing cue

The "draw cue" is a freak. I was managing a pool room in Dallas when Dean
came in with this sneaky Pete with a crack in the butt. He says this thing draws
the ball better than any cue in the world, watch. Dean has never been able to
draw his ball a long way when the cue ball and object ball are a full table length
away, but the cue ball came back like it had a motor in it. I hit a few balls and
the went over to one of the 9 ft gold crowns. I have played with hundreds of
different cues, some that draw the ball easier than others. I never hard a hard
time drawing my ball, but with this thing it was scary. It was a little hard to play
with because any spin was magnified. I called Keith the next day and he make
me one just like it, using the same cue ball if he had enough left. Got it in
a couple of weeks,just a good sneaky Pete, nothing special. Taper on the
draw cue was nothing special,about 10" 12" pro taper 12.5mm 12.75mm
and looked and felt like LePro tip,I wanted that cue but Dennis Glen ended
up with it.That makes two cues in his collection I want, The other is the last
Balabushka that George mailed just before he died. I was the original owner
and Mr. Glen through Dean got in touch with me and brought the cue to me
to sign, Just saying for him to have a sneaky Pete with a crack in the butt in
his collection speaks volumes.
jack
 

jackpot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
would love to

I would love to see Mike Massey hit some balls with the draw cue. The cue
ball might burn a hole in the cloth. Since it is wood there is probably no way
to figure out why it is so different and no way to duplicate it. I completely
understand that people that have not seen it or hit a ball with it would not
really believe that it is that much different from other cues that draw the ball
well.But everyone that has, will swear it is phenomenal,everyone.
jack
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the cue was played by jerry franklin
i wish you could have seen the smile on his face when he saw
me draw the ball,relatively easy
and it came back like a masse shot

jackpot,made the Libra cues and is a really great player
dennis and steve glenn both hit it

it was also possible to really hit a lot of inside english
without making allowance for throw or whatever
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
the cue was played by jerry franklin
i wish you could have seen the smile on his face when he saw
me draw the ball,relatively easy
and it came back like a masse shot

jackpot,made the Libra cues and is a really great player
dennis and steve glenn both hit it

it was also possible to really hit a lot of inside english
without making allowance for throw or whatever

Throw or cue ball squirt ?
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How much did the shaft weigh by itself?

Yeah, personally I'm of the opinion that it might be possible to figure out what is different and duplicate it, and possibly without too much trouble (maybe).

Basic stuff to start. Shaft weight, butt weight, balance point. Change tips. Change tip shape, put shaft on a different butt and see if it still performs. Put butt on a different shaft, etc. There are lots of non-destructive things you could do to learn more about what is going on.

It's a stick, not a magic wand.
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't remember anything unusual about it
weight or anything
but i no longer have the cue

i donated if to the glenn people
for their museum

i can no longer get the specs easily
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't remember anything unusual about it
weight or anything
but i no longer have the cue

i donated if to the glenn people
for their museum

i can no longer get the specs easily

I just can't get over the idea that someone finds this extraordinary cue and puts it in a glass case rather than try to figure out what causes it. Knowing why it behaves that way could change how cues are made.
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
I just can't get over the idea that someone finds this extraordinary cue and puts it in a glass case rather than try to figure out what causes it. Knowing why it behaves that way could change how cues are made.

Ok. So lets say you could figure it out. How could that be a positive (now) for most players who play pool when that would mean that the distance from center on the cue ball would drastically decrease for the use of effective "english"?? Which affects throw as well. That would also mean that a player would have to be WAY more precise when hitting the cue ball. Any slight distance from center could drastically affect the shot. Most players aren't ready nor would the recreational player ever be ready for that.

The cue is a freak. If you'd like to study it for it's physics properties to be used in some other way, great! I just think it wouldnt benefit the game.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok. So lets say you could figure it out. How could that be a positive (now) for most players who play pool when that would mean that the distance from center on the cue ball would drastically decrease for the use of effective "english"?? Which affects throw as well. That would also mean that a player would have to be WAY more precise when hitting the cue ball. Any slight distance from center could drastically affect the shot. Most players aren't ready nor would the recreational player ever be ready for that.

The cue is a freak. If you'd like to study it for it's physics properties to be used in some other way, great! I just think it wouldnt benefit the game.

I was thinking more in terms of the amazing draw that Dean was talking about. Honestly I don't remember what he said about the deflection/squirt properties. I totally get your point, but the nature of research is that you never know what you will find out. For instance, maybe there is a way to achieve the massive draw characteristic while at the same time minimizing whatever is happening with english.

In any case the point is moot. The people who actually played with the cue seem to agree with you!
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
I was thinking more in terms of the amazing draw that Dean was talking about. Honestly I don't remember what he said about the deflection/squirt properties. I totally get your point, but the nature of research is that you never know what you will find out. For instance, maybe there is a way to achieve the massive draw characteristic while at the same time minimizing whatever is happening with english.

In any case the point is moot. The people who actually played with the cue seem to agree with you!

To be honest I personally would like to know why it hits that way too just for kicks regardless of what my thoughts are on the subject.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To be honest I personally would like to know why it hits that way too just for kicks regardless of what my thoughts are on the subject.

Agreed. Now go call your buddy Dennis and get ahold of that cue! :smile:
 

johnnysd

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok. So lets say you could figure it out. How could that be a positive (now) for most players who play pool when that would mean that the distance from center on the cue ball would drastically decrease for the use of effective "english"?? Which affects throw as well. That would also mean that a player would have to be WAY more precise when hitting the cue ball. Any slight distance from center could drastically affect the shot. Most players aren't ready nor would the recreational player ever be ready for that.

The cue is a freak. If you'd like to study it for it's physics properties to be used in some other way, great! I just think it wouldnt benefit the game.


Thats an interesting opinion which I don't quite understand at all. I will accept Deanoc at his word saying the cue was an outlier. It seems baffling to me that people would not want to know what makes the cue draw better than others. There are so many completely non-destructive things that could be done to analyze it.

1. Weight
2. Tip diameter
3. Ferrule length and material
4. Exact taper profile
5. Does another shaft on that same cue produce silly draw or is it shaft related only?

I sought out this thread because I had an interesting experience last night.

I have been searching for "the cue"

In my search, I have realized that I want a cue that is not so overly stiff. I was playing with a Lambros and Olney both which I really like but both are so stiff it is hard (for me at least) to hit finesse draw. So I switched to my Dominiak which is great and much less stiff. But I have read here that Dominiak cues are considered really stiff too.

So last night at league, I was trying to help a mid level player who says he cannot really draw the ball. He said that some 7 made a length of the table shot and drew back the length of the table. Bar box, so thats really not that much draw and in trying to help him learn how to draw he wanted to see if I could do that. I agreed and had to use his cue, which was some production cue with some gerneric LD shaft, not sure what. Anyway I hit the shot and drew almost 2 lengths of the table.

I had actually forgotten what a "whippy" cue was actually like!!

So in my search I am actually looking for fractional differences in stiff not really something that is more whippy.

In terms of this cue though that is relevant because here is a guy that cannot even draw with a cue that for me was freakishly easy to draw with. I assume of all those cues hit the same.

So it would seem to be important to figure out what made this cue a freak?

Was it accidentally very whippy?

Did it flex in an unusual place?

Was it especially light (or heavy) at the tip or maybe the last 6 inches of the shaft had an unusual wight distribution.

It seems wild to me that people would not be powerfully compelled to figure it out.

In terms of helping players, if you can figure out what makes this cue draw so much, then you might be able to use that information to tailor the design of the shaft for exact characteristics for each persons individual stroke.

Say you found that the cue drew so much because it was especially "flexy" at 9" from the tip. Well maybe you can "fit" the flex of a shaft to an individual stroke by adjusting the flex there, sort of like golf fits clubs to individual swings.

A lot of golf technology stems from outlier clubs like this that lead to breakthroughs in club design.

Same could happen here. Sticking it in a case somewhere like a mythical sword just seems especially silly to me.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
There's a lot that could be going on. I personally don't believe it, or at least not the way it's being touted. Memory is often fantasticated, especially when supported by others. It's kinda like a past tense version of mass hysteria. I don't doubt that it's a nice cue. I don't doubt the integrity of the people who remember it. What I doubt is the reliance on personal memory rather than tangible evidence. No offense to anybody, but I will not give more credence to somebody's memory than I do my own, and if I cannot trust my own then don't expect me to trust yours.
 

thoffen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thats an interesting opinion which I don't quite understand at all. I will accept Deanoc at his word saying the cue was an outlier. It seems baffling to me that people would not want to know what makes the cue draw better than others. There are so many completely non-destructive things that could be done to analyze it.

1. Weight
2. Tip diameter
3. Ferrule length and material
4. Exact taper profile
5. Does another shaft on that same cue produce silly draw or is it shaft related only?

I sought out this thread because I had an interesting experience last night.

I have been searching for "the cue"

In my search, I have realized that I want a cue that is not so overly stiff. I was playing with a Lambros and Olney both which I really like but both are so stiff it is hard (for me at least) to hit finesse draw. So I switched to my Dominiak which is great and much less stiff. But I have read here that Dominiak cues are considered really stiff too.

So last night at league, I was trying to help a mid level player who says he cannot really draw the ball. He said that some 7 made a length of the table shot and drew back the length of the table. Bar box, so thats really not that much draw and in trying to help him learn how to draw he wanted to see if I could do that. I agreed and had to use his cue, which was some production cue with some gerneric LD shaft, not sure what. Anyway I hit the shot and drew almost 2 lengths of the table.

I had actually forgotten what a "whippy" cue was actually like!!

So in my search I am actually looking for fractional differences in stiff not really something that is more whippy.

In terms of this cue though that is relevant because here is a guy that cannot even draw with a cue that for me was freakishly easy to draw with. I assume of all those cues hit the same.

So it would seem to be important to figure out what made this cue a freak?

Was it accidentally very whippy?

Did it flex in an unusual place?

Was it especially light (or heavy) at the tip or maybe the last 6 inches of the shaft had an unusual wight distribution.

It seems wild to me that people would not be powerfully compelled to figure it out.

In terms of helping players, if you can figure out what makes this cue draw so much, then you might be able to use that information to tailor the design of the shaft for exact characteristics for each persons individual stroke.

Say you found that the cue drew so much because it was especially "flexy" at 9" from the tip. Well maybe you can "fit" the flex of a shaft to an individual stroke by adjusting the flex there, sort of like golf fits clubs to individual swings.

A lot of golf technology stems from outlier clubs like this that lead to breakthroughs in club design.

Same could happen here. Sticking it in a case somewhere like a mythical sword just seems especially silly to me.

I was reading the cue man's book the other day and came across the story of the cue in question, where Chris said the plastic of the QB material was actually fairly soft, perhaps contributing to a spring-like action.

With your story, it may be that a stiffer-hitting cue has less time in contact with the CB. My imagination of that is as follows:
1. Poor stroke (things like deceleration and not maintaining a straight line through the stroke)
  • Stiff cue - still gets some draw action since the tip remains in contact less time but imparts its force more consistently on the bottom of the cue ball to get backspin
  • Whippy cue - kills the draw because the force is applied inconsistently through the contact with the CB
2. Good stroke
  • Stiff cue - gets draw action but not much more than with a poor stroke since the cue is in contact with the CB for a shorter time span
  • Whippy cue - gets more draw action since the force is applied over a longer period of time to where it needs to go to impart backspin on the cue

Really, it's just speculation. The hypothesis generally fits your data.

All this said, I think first of all cues with identical materials and constructions play differently, thus the natural variation in the properties of the materials must be pretty significant. You could possibly perfect which cue materials and constructions give the most action, but the random variance from 2 pieces of identical species of wood might affect things more.

I also think this kind of speculation (I wouldn't call it analysis, no real data) leads naturally to the conclusion we all draw. There is no best cue. Everyone has a cue that suits them best. If you have an inconsistent stroke, you might be able to get better action with a whippier cue, but your capacity to control it would be terrible. A lot of pros even have very compact strokes that wouldn't be great for imparting action but have a lot of consistency and get more spin when necessary by a higher velocity stroke and/or striking the CB further off-center. For them, maybe a stiffer cue is better because their stroke doesn't get them more action on a whippier cue and a stiffer cue will perform more consistently.

Or maybe it's all mental. We might have an experiential memory of hitting a superb stroke and thus our expectations and sensory feedback will drive our individual performance more than anything actually having to do with the properties of the cue.

But I think that's why we should experiment as players and also for cue builders to find what produces the results they want. But no one can expect to build a cue that best for every player.
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
There's a lot that could be going on. I personally don't believe it, or at least not the way it's being touted. Memory is often fantasticated, especially when supported by others. It's kinda like a past tense version of mass hysteria. I don't doubt that it's a nice cue. I don't doubt the integrity of the people who remember it. What I doubt is the reliance on personal memory rather than tangible evidence. No offense to anybody, but I will not give more credence to somebody's memory than I do my own, and if I cannot trust my own then don't expect me to trust yours.

Eric, you can clear your mind up by just calling Denny Glenn. Then you can tell him directly that his recollection and memory are fading and that he and many others that were there must have been suffering from the same mass delusion.;)
 

eihi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know Dean, but he seems pretty knowledgeable, and it also seems that he has played with a lot of cues from almost every major cue maker.

If he says there is something special about that cue, there is zero doubt in my mind that it is true to some extent.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Eric, you can clear your mind up by just calling Denny Glenn. Then you can tell him directly that his recollection and memory are fading and that he and many others that were there must have been suffering from the same mass delusion.;)

Like I said, no offense toward anybody, but touting something without substantiating it is as good as telling me Santa Claus was on your roof last Christmas eve. Talk is cheap. When I see the cue, if I see the, I'll be 100% honest about what I experience. Until then it's as good as myth.

edit to add: I'm not calling or thinking of anybody a liar. I'm only pointing out that stories are often much more fantastical than actuality, and this story has all the hallmarks of that. It may be exactly as stated. It may not be. So long as the cue is locked away from the world, we'll never know, hence my doubts.
 
Last edited:

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
Like I said, no offense toward anybody, but touting something without substantiating it is as good as telling me Santa Claus was on your roof last Christmas eve. Talk is cheap. When I see the cue, if I see the, I'll be 100% honest about what I experience. Until then it's as good as myth.

edit to add: I'm not calling or thinking of anybody a liar. I'm only pointing out that stories are often much more fantastical than actuality, and this story has all the hallmarks of that. It may be exactly as stated. It may not be. So long as the cue is locked away from the world, we'll never know, hence my doubts.

You stated that "memory" is prabably a good part of the issue. I gave you an option to start with. You gotta start somewhere. Hell don't take my word for it. Go ahead and fuel your curiosity. Call Denny and test his memory. Until THEN I'll choose to put these doubts of yours in my lost memory bank. :)
 
Top