Low Deflection Shafts - What's Your Opinion???

King T · Oct 3, 2015

Thanks!

Patrick Johnson said:
With maximum side spin (hitting the CB 1/2" from center), a house cue or a two-piece maple cue with similar specs will squirt maybe 3/4" per foot of CB travel. A typical low-squirt (LD) cue will squirt about half to two thirds that much.

Swerve will reduce the result equally for both cues (more or less depending on the shot), so the net difference will remain the same.

pj
chgo

I would have really feel a benefit to switch and the little time I spent with the LD shaft I tried wasn't so good.

I still might try the Mezz, I don't think they claim to be LD according to a friend.

ENGLISH! · Oct 3, 2015

Hi CJ, Where & How have you been?

I'm one that switched to LD about 5 or more years age after playing with
reg. for more than 40 years & until TOI I was spinning every shot.

It only took me a few sessions over a coupe of weeks to get comfortable with the LD shafts.

BUT... I think they may have been a reason why I had some initial trouble with TOI.

Best Wishes & Stay & Shoot Well.

ENGLISH! · Oct 3, 2015

336Robin said:
A friend of mine wanted me to try out a low deflection shaft and we played some One Pocket. I didn't do near as well as when I knew I had some squirt to contend with. The particular shaft hit really stiff and I didn't like that hit very well. Its hard not to love the hit of good maple. I would like to spend more time with some of the low deflection shafts and try them all but I think I would hate to give up a great hit for a little less squirt.

Robin.

I have a 314 CAT that has been sanded down to 12 mm with a long 22 inch taper. It has a very soft hit with virtual no squirt (please everyone note the word virtually) & can spin the hell out of the ball with minimal effort.

BUT for me it's too low squirt for everything over 2/3 of a table as the swerve over takes the bit of squirt & the ball actually crossed the line. But I love what I can do with it in close quarters except for that bit of whippyness. I grew up with & played a long time with a European conical taper. That is why I have gone to the OB Pro.

The point is that one CAN get one wants or likes.

Colin Colenso · Oct 3, 2015

ENGLISH! said:
Robin.

I have a 314 CAT that has been sanded down to 12 mm with a long 22 inch taper. It has a very soft hit with virtual no squirt (please everyone note the word virtually) & can spin the hell out of the ball with minimal effort.

BUT for me it's too low squirt for everything over 2/3 of a table as the swerve over takes the bit of squirt & the ball actually crossed the line. But I love what I can do with it in close quarters except for that bit of whippyness. I grew up with & played a long time with a European conical taper. That is why I have gone to the OB Pro.

The point is that one CAN get one wants or likes.

As only to stimulate a discussion Rick,

I find it strange that you experience most? many? of your 2/3 table english shots swerving significantly to overtake the effect of squirt. I play with an 11.9mm cue (taper is irrelevant to me btw), and I'd estimate less than 5% of the shots I play with english have more than 2mm of swerve over 2/3 table length, versus approx 15mm of squirt.

Are you using english on a lot of long soft shots? I avoid them like the plague. For one, the english does little to change the CB position on soft shots and secondly, it's usually better to look for a firmer shot option to find position when english is required.

When CB & OB are close, there's little harm in using english on soft shots to hold a good line better, but on longer shots, soft shots with english are rarely used by good players, as they'd rather make sure of the pot and take a bit less preferable CB position on the next shot than to try to judge a long swerving pot first up.

Just curious what you're experiencing, because your description is very far away from what I am familiar with, and I play more english than any player I've ever seen.

Cheers,
Colin

mortuarymike-nv · Oct 3, 2015

Laminated or non laminated ?

Laminated LD shafts, no thank you to 90% of them made.
I don't like paper thin laminated tenons and delamination issues .

Non laminated LD shafts , much better IMO but still have tenon and cracking issue plus the hollow sound.

My opinion ,
Solid maple shafts , old growth straight grained, dried or cured for a few years
25 growth rings per inch conical taper un capped micarta ferrule 12.5 mm tip
Triangle kamui sniper or ultra skin moori makes no diference I can play with them all .

336Robin · Oct 3, 2015

Tips

mortuarymike-nv said:
Laminated LD shafts, no thank you to 90% of them made.
I don't like paper thin laminated tenons and delamination issues .

Non laminated LD shafts , much better IMO but still have tenon and cracking issue plus the hollow sound.

My opinion ,
Solid maple shafts , old growth straight grained, dried or cured for a few years
25 growth rings per inch conical taper un capped micarta ferrule 12.5 mm tip
Triangle kamui sniper or ultra skin moori makes no diference I can play with them all .

I have always been a triangle/sniper fan myself and recently tried elkmaster.....you really should even though its an old tip but keep on awhile to appreciate it.

mortuarymike-nv · Oct 3, 2015

shafts

King T said:
I would have really feel a benefit to switch and the little time I spent with the LD shaft I tried wasn't so good.

I still might try the Mezz, I don't think they claim to be LD according to a friend.

Most cue repair guys can make you a non laminated ld shaft.
IMO they are as close to a solid maple cue as possible.

Not trying to talk you out of a MEZZ just offering a option

mortuarymike-nv · Oct 3, 2015

Elk master tips

336Robin said:
I have always been a triangle/sniper fan myself and recently tried elkmaster.....you really should even though its an old tip but keep on awhile to appreciate it.

All the elk masters I have been installing seem to want to swell up on me when I am trimming the tip.
They seem really soft to begin with.
I install about 600 elk masters tips per year on the bar cues I exchange out..
I have gone to using a live cutter to trim my tips and have been trying everything to keep them from swelling up.
I believe 100% they shoot hands down, I just think there is better quality of tips and the person stroking the cue .

I will have to install one and see, I might be surprised

ENGLISH! · Oct 3, 2015

Colin Colenso said:
As only to stimulate a discussion Rick,

I find it strange that you experience most? many? of your 2/3 table english shots swerving significantly to overtake the effect of squirt. I play with an 11.9mm cue (taper is irrelevant to me btw), and I'd estimate less than 5% of the shots I play with english have more than 2mm of swerve over 2/3 table length, versus approx 15mm of squirt.

Are you using english on a lot of long soft shots? I avoid them like the plague. For one, the english does little to change the CB position on soft shots and secondly, it's usually better to look for a firmer shot option to find position when english is required.

When CB & OB are close, there's little harm in using english on soft shots to hold a good line better, but on longer shots, soft shots with english are rarely used by good players, as they'd rather make sure of the pot and take a bit less preferable CB position on the next shot than to try to judge a long swerving pot first up.

Just curious what you're experiencing, because your description is very far away from what I am familiar with, and I play more english than any player I've ever seen.

Cheers,
Colin

Well I do very much of what you say & have been rather successful over the years.

As you probably know there is a fine line, speed to spin wise, as to how & when the spin takes & where one hits on the ball & at what angle the cue is & the angle of cue approach.

I really only have that issue with that ONE(1) juiced 314 CAT shaft that has been sanded down to a very long 20+ inch taper that is 12mm at the tip but is thinner in the bridging area. I don;t & won;t use that shaft on 9 ft. tables but will on small coin tables.

AND... I'm not really using any defined BHE.

I have checked that shaft for how much it squirts & to be honest, without precise mechanisms I can barely determine any. I know that it does, but lets just say this, I would never use it to play with TOI.

Since you only want a discussion & not an argument, then perhaps I should not mention that the shaft is also rather whippy compared to any other Predator shaft that I have ever hit with, In fact I just recently hit with a brand new 314 that I liked as it had a good firm hit to it. As I've said I never really liked the whippy part of the old Meuccis shafts. Please disregard this paragraph.

Another shaft that I hit a few with is a DiamondWood cue that had a very solid hit & feel with very very low to 'no' squirt.

Cheers to You.

336Robin · Oct 3, 2015

You should really Elkmaster

mortuarymike-nv said:
All the elk masters I have been installing seem to want to swell up on me when I am trimming the tip.
They seem really soft to begin with.
I install about 600 elk masters tips per year on the bar cues I exchange out..
I have gone to using a live cutter to trim my tips and have been trying everything to keep them from swelling up.
I believe 100% they shoot hands down, I just think there is better quality of tips and the person stroking the cue .

I will have to install one and see, I might be surprised

Since you are interested I will finish my findings on the Elkmaster that was installed on my cue.

For the first 4 weeks or so it was extremely grippy and awesome and then it goes into a stage where its is getting beaten in. In that stage its a lot like a good triangle just a little better. Then one day you will miscue a time or two and that is when you cut back some. I got a 4ever tip tool and rotated my shaft on it and ground it down just a bit and it was different from when it was first installed because of the pressure of shooting balls with it but it was still very good and softer than the triangle is normally but approaching that density. I will be watching it as it ages but I would estimate the tip to have about 6 months of good play in it at least before switching out for a brand new one and starting all over again.

Its not been excessively mushrooming in fact I am surprised at its performance.

I like a grippy tip and from what I've seen here I would rather do a little tip maintenance and replacement on something that I actually enjoy playing with than to deal with a tip glassing on me but never mushrooming. I left mine tall and let it work its way down as it compresses.

You install them a lot so you certainly see what happens to them on house cues. I think there may be a stage when you cut it off and go again but from what I see and understand the time during is sure worth it.

I have had Triangles left tall that Ive played with much much longer but in no way did I get the performance I did with Elkmaster.

Good luck

ENGLISH! · Oct 3, 2015

336Robin said:
Since you are interested I will finish my findings on the Elkmaster that was installed on my cue.

For the first 4 weeks or so it was extremely grippy and awesome and then it goes into a stage where its is getting beaten in. In that stage its a lot like a good triangle just a little better. Then one day you will miscue a time or two and that is when you cut back some. I got a 4ever tip tool and rotated my shaft on it and ground it down just a bit and it was different from when it was first installed because of the pressure of shooting balls with it but it was still very good and softer than the triangle is normally but approaching that density. I will be watching it as it ages but I would estimate the tip to have about 6 months of good play in it at least before switching out for a brand new one and starting all over again.

Its not been excessively mushrooming in fact I am surprised at its performance.

I like a grippy tip and from what I've seen here I would rather do a little tip maintenance and replacement on something that I actually enjoy playing with than to deal with a tip glassing on me but never mushrooming. I left mine tall and let it work its way down as it compresses.

You install them a lot so you certainly see what happens to them on house cues. I think there may be a stage when you cut it off and go again but from what I see and understand the time during is sure worth it.

I have had Triangles left tall that Ive played with much much longer but in no way did I get the performance I did with Elkmaster.

Good luck

Robin,

I've usde Elk Master & Brunswick Blue Diamonds (may actually be the same tip) for about 45 of my nearly 50 years playing.

About 5 years ago I got an OB Classic with a Black Kamui Super Soft on it.

Now keep in mind my like for the very soft & grippy Elk Masters, when I say that the Kamui felt like it was sticking to the ball like bubble gum.

Someone here told me to take a few layers off at a time until I got it like I like. I did & it played great.

That said the price differential of Kamui to Elk Master is rather larger.

I recently put a G2 on one of my shafts. At first it had a very hard sound for a soft tip & I did not like that but some how & seemingly all of a sudden that went away. Again not as economical as an Elk Master.

9Ballr · Oct 3, 2015

"Low Deflection Shafts - What's Your Opinion???"

My opinion is that they suck!
I hate the damn things.
With the constant new models coming out you have to be adjusting
your shot all the time.
Just get a traditional shaft, use it, learn it, and you're done.
Plus you can get any cue out there and enjoy the cue and how different
they all feel.
Besides that I think LD's are the biggest scams to hit the pool market...EVER

Bavafongoul · Oct 3, 2015

It Is Always To Each Their Own........

LD shafts must have some value because people still keep buying them.......and a lot of pros use them........and 25 years ago, no pro used them...........or so I'm supposing....make it 40 years ago to be safe.........my point is if you think you need a LD shaft to play better, then you certainly will. On the other hand, if you believe that the increased deflection that occurs with original shafts makes your cue ball shot execution more controllable and predictable, then you will not like LD shafts.

I am not a fan of LD shafts and I do not use them since I prefer original shafts made to my specifications: >3.8 ozs (flat face wood), 16-17" taper and 12.75mm shafts with 1" ivory ferrules & Kamui Clear Black Tips (Soft) ....nickel shape. This is my substitute for any LD shaft.& are the specs on the shafts for my Scruggs, Owen & Rauenzahn cues & I have two more cues being made using these same specs. My EP cue has 13mm 4ozs. flat faced shafts. I submit when you keep your equipment specs tight and consistent, you will not want or need any LD shaft.. How many more balls would Mosconi have pocketed that day he ran 526 if his cue had LD shafts? ......Nuf Ced!

Matt B.

Pidge · Oct 3, 2015

I play with a 1pc Parris cue that's solid maple except it has an ebony butt. It has a 10.6mm tip and I feel it has the best of both worlds. Feels like a solid maple cue... Which is what it is after all, but doesn't deflect all that much. Actually it does compared to nearly every LD shift I've played with but it's very similar to how my snooker cue reacts, which I like.

The thing with LD shafts I find is it feels like you're playing with a toothpick. The sound is awful and makes me feel like I'm going to break it. I don't like how little some of them deflect the cue ball either. For me it takes the enjoyment out of pulling off a difficult shot with side spin.

They're good for the game though. Any improvement in equipment technology is a great sign so long may it continue.

Tony_in_MD · Oct 3, 2015

Nice opinion from the other side of the debate. I do the same thing for any cue I have made too.

Matt, it is interesting that we both have the same specs for the shafts except for the tips.

:thumbup:

Bavafongoul said:
LD shafts must have some value because people still keep buying them.......and a lot of pros use them........and 25 years ago, no pro used them...........or so I'm supposing....make it 40 years ago to be safe.........my point is if you think you need a LD shaft to play better, then you certainly will. On the other hand, if you believe that the increased deflection that occurs with original shafts makes your cue ball shot execution more controllable and predictable, then you will not like LD shafts.

I am not a fan of LD shafts and I do not use them since I prefer original shafts made to my specifications: >3.8 ozs (flat face wood), 16-17" taper and 12.75mm shafts with 1" ivory ferrules & Kamui Clear Black Tips (Soft) ....nickel shape. This is my substitute for any LD shaft.& are the specs on the shafts for my Scruggs, Owen & Rauenzahn cues & I have two more cues being made using these same specs. My EP cue has 13mm 4ozs. flat faced shafts. I submit when you keep your equipment specs tight and consistent, you will not want or need any LD shaft.. How many more balls would Mosconi have pocketed that day he ran 526 if his cue had LD shafts? ......Nuf Ced!

Matt B.

WildWing · Oct 3, 2015

skins said:
Either one It doesn't matter. Learn the shaft you play with and you'll be golden.... Now if you asked which one "hits" better, then I'd say normal old growth hard rock maple...

This is the truth. With muscle memory, either LD or non LD shaft works fine, and neither works, without skill. Agree on old growth maple shafts too. If you haven't hit with a shaft from the 60s to the mid 80s, you don't know what you're missing.

All the best,
WW

Patrick Johnson · Oct 3, 2015

King T said:
King T said:

My question is do Dufferin one piece house cues deflect? If so how much compared to a two piece cue with a maple shaft or a two piece cue with a LD shaft.

Click to expand...

Patrick Johnson:
With maximum side spin (hitting the CB 1/2" from center), a house cue or a two-piece maple cue with similar specs will squirt maybe 3/4" per foot of CB travel. A typical low-squirt (LD) cue will squirt about half to two thirds that much.

Swerve will reduce the result equally for both cues (more or less depending on the shot), so the net difference will remain the same.

To illustrate this, here's a pic of a half-ball shot with maximum left spin. Assuming it's hit firmly with a level-as-possible cue (so there's no swerve), the solid white line shows the desired CB path to make the shot, and the dotted white lines show the CB paths for a low-squirt and a high-squirt cue if aim is not corrected to the left.

For this example:
- the low squirt cue has a 16" pivot length and squirts 1" over 2 1/2 diamonds
- the high squirt cue has an 8" pivot length and squirts 2" over 2 1/2 diamonds

Squirt would be proportionately less with less side spin (half as much side spin would produce 1/2 as much squirt, etc.).

pj
chgo

View attachment 33214

J Soto · Oct 3, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
"Low Deflection" shafts are fine, but they still deflect slightly. I'm of the opinion that it's better to TRY to throw the shots and make the deflection process "your best friend," rather than some "evil enemy."

There's two trains of thought when playing rotation games. One is to let the table dictate what shot you hit. That would mean you look at the shot and it tells you what speed, what spin, and what angle (is the best to get on your next shot).

The other way is what I suggest. Develop a shot that enables you to maximize the pocket size. This means you line up to undercut the shot slightly (aim in the pocket, but on the "undercut side") and deflect it to over-cut slightly.

My preference is to deflect the ball slightly with a "Touch" of Inside because I can get a more consistent result by adjusting my speed, rather than my "aim". Then I can start playing a consistent angle as well. This means I'm controlling the angle, the speed, and the spin according to your preference, not because the "table makes me hit a low percentage {spinning} shot."

Sounds backwards, however, think about it, how well could you play if you hit the same speed, {same}place on the cue ball, and {same} angle every time?

If I undercut a shot I hit it firmer and accelerate more next time. If I miss the same shot hitting a "slow spin shot," I don't get the feedback to know what happened, it could be a variety of factors. There's more calculations, so therefore more variables to deal with.

If I make an adjustment that's incorrect it could throw you off temporarily enough to lose a whole match or gambling set. The amount of money involved in matches I've played prohibited this type of guessing. I had to know for sure so I could make a specific adjustment!

When we spin the ball or try to hit center and miss there's a lot more variables and it's difficult to know and adjust for errant shots. This effects our ability to maximize "margin of error"
through the use of "Pocket Zones". To create a pocket zone you must learn to favor one side of the pocket and effectively force it into the center or other side of the pocket.

To see free videos demonstrating these techniques visit my web site at www.cjwiley.com - you will see 29 balls in a row made in one pocket and the 15 ball rotation ghost drill using the Touch of inside system

CJ, When I first stated playing pool I bought your first video that you had out. In it it talks about making the pocket play bigger using outside spin. So my question to you is this, what is up with this TOI stuff? It contradicts what you taught in your first video.

Colin Colenso · Oct 3, 2015

ENGLISH! said:
Well I do very much of what you say & have been rather successful over the years.

As you probably know there is a fine line, speed to spin wise, as to how & when the spin takes & where one hits on the ball & at what angle the cue is & the angle of cue approach.

I really only have that issue with that ONE(1) juiced 314 CAT shaft that has been sanded down to a very long 20+ inch taper that is 12mm at the tip but is thinner in the bridging area. I don;t & won;t use that shaft on 9 ft. tables but will on small coin tables.

AND... I'm not really using any defined BHE.

I have checked that shaft for how much it squirts & to be honest, without precise mechanisms I can barely determine any. I know that it does, but lets just say this, I would never use it to play with TOI.

Since you only want a discussion & not an argument, then perhaps I should not mention that the shaft is also rather whippy compared to any other Predator shaft that I have ever hit with, In fact I just recently hit with a brand new 314 that I liked as it had a good firm hit to it. As I've said I never really liked the whippy part of the old Meuccis shafts. Please disregard this paragraph.

Another shaft that I hit a few with is a DiamondWood cue that had a very solid hit & feel with very very low to 'no' squirt.

Cheers to You.

Hi Rick,
I understand that on certain slowish and medium speed longer shots, swerve and squirt essentially cancel out. However, I only ever play these types of shots when a hanger is on offer, or I have absolutely no other positional option. [edit]: I forgot to mention safety shots, where slower longer shots with side come up pretty often.

Having watched a lot of the pros playing this past month, around 70 hours or so of 9-ball, I'd estimate that on 80%+ of the occasions when they used significant english, they were on medium firm to firm speeds and they had to allow for squirt on these shots.

So it seems you aren't playing the same kind of shots pros do, or perhaps you're playing a lot of 1-pocket or 14.1?

To me, there's nothing more satisfying than executing stroke shots with english and creating advanced positional routes around the table. You're missing all the fun

Cheers,
Colin

Cornerman · Oct 4, 2015

Pidge said:
The thing with LD shafts I find is it feels like you're playing with a toothpick. The sound is awful and makes me feel like I'm going to break it.

I'm not sure which specific LD shafts you're feeling are like this. I have 15 or so low squirt shafts. They all feel different. I can't imagine someone saying that the Mezz WX feels like a toothpick that's going to break, for example.

Freddie <~~~ squirts normally

Low Deflection Shafts - What's Your Opinion???

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