US Bar Table Championships to be Mosconi Cup Points Events! Feb 16-22, Reno, NV

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pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The way that things are shaping up means that a lot of the Mosconi team places have got players routes to claim them.
For example - the WPA list for Europe

Spot 1 - This will more than likely be ONE from the US based quartet of Mika, Darren, Jayson and Thorsten. But they face tough competition from home players like Nikos,Karl, Albin plus Dennis Grabe, Daryl Peach and Chris Melling.

Spot 2 -These last six can all have two bites of the cherry. But add Feijen, vd Berg, Gray and Souquet into that equation. Light the blue touchpaper and stand back!

Spot 3 - The combined points of the WPA and Euro Tour Ranking. Realistically that should be one of the last four names.

Wildcard 1 and 2 - This is 'dog eat dog' with any NINE of these names not finding a berth for the Las Vegas trip
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
justadub said:
And that's only if SVB sits in his fishing boat the rest of the year.[...]
Click to expand...

SVB will be a guest at my house for a week or so as soon as DCC is over. We'll all see where he goes after that...

There's another issue bubbling up in these discussions that has nothing to do with conspiracies or conflicts with WPA events or the Lake Tahoe monster.

I think this is a good time to make some comments about 7' tables and their role in pool the future of pool. Take out your iphone and start playing "The Times They are a Changin" as some background music....

Let's look at some realities here. At Reno last year were a number of top US players, including SVB, Deuel, Woodward, Shuff, Bergman, couple of Dominquez's, Frost, and Saez, top Canadians Klatt and Moora, top Europeans like Shaw, Appleton, Hohmann and Immonen.... ... and then there's Kiamco, Biado, Orcollo...

When you look at this it is striking that a few top US players --Dechaine and Hall come to mind--near as I can tell haven't played in any of the Reno events in the last several years.

I think there is an "I don't do bar tables" attitude amongst some top players. But they should look around them! Dechaine should stuff that mindset in the same place he evidently stuffed his "I don't do One Pocket" mindset ;-).

Many of the old attitudes came from Valley bar tables with slow cloth, dead and inconsistent rails, stupid cueballs, and players that don't respect the game. But so much of that has changed. Now we're talking just smaller tables that play well, have good cloth and good balls. And here is another reality. You can fit more of them in a given space and you can transport them more easily. This is actually a big deal.

A few comments suggested short races on easy equipment is a joke... A single race-to-11 double elimination 9-ball tournament like the US Open--especially one that is not seeded--is a crap shoot too, and it's a crap shoot on 16 tables that takes more than a week to finish. At least at the USBTC, top players have three swings. This is another consequence of cost effectively being able to bring in a lot of tables. And if you did want to have one tournament, you could get away with longer races because you have more tables.


One good thing about the US Open--when it had 250 players that is--is the fact amateurs and regional shortstops can join in with the pros. Think about this. When that player you've never heard of from a small city in the middle of nowhere shows up at the US Open (or at the USBTC), that player plays like God and seems unbeatable many players back in that home city. The fact their guy is in the event competing with the pros is a big deal to them. That local interest in their hometown hero at a big event is a little pack of seeds that grows interest in pool.

We need more of these events. The US Open recently has been trying to go to larger entry fee and smaller field--so --other BB issues aside--that's not it.

The USBTC is it right now. It's the tournament that fits this bill. We need more of them. And we need the top players to participate. It will be used for Mosconi points? That's fantastic news! It means somebody is paying attention and has some ideas about what is good for pool....
 
Floppage

Floppage

True Beginner
Silver Member
itsfroze said:
Why doesn't the WPA do things like making sure events they put their name on
don't over lap with other events players want to play in (CSI Bar Box Event) and
why don't they make sure in other events (U.S. Open 9-Ball) the money is there ?

I would think any association with the name World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA)
that takes their position seriously would look to help and protect the Pro Players
in situations such as these.
Click to expand...

The only way that works is if players and possibly even sponsors simply won't participate in any event that doesn't have the endorsement of that governing body. Otherwise they simply don't have the leverage they need to make promoters address schedule overlaps, the need for escrow accounts and payouts, etc.

From what I've seen so far that doesn't seem to likely though. It doesn't seem like anyone respects any organization (WPA, BCA, etc.) enough to only play those events.
 
P

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
itsfroze said:
Why doesn't the WPA do things like making sure events they put their name on
don't over lap with other events players want to play in (CSI Bar Box Event) and
why don't they make sure in other events (U.S. Open 9-Ball) the money is there ?

I would think any association with the name World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA)
that takes their position seriously would look to help and protect the Pro Players
in situations such as these.
Click to expand...

The WPA have the chance to use this current situation to tighten up on some of their
constitutional responsibilities. One thing that would help is for a nucleus of committed player to become members of a Players Category within the WPA. This group need only initially consist of 64 players and would have the same status as other country federations. But they would be able to 'hold the line' and be part of a bigger entity.
WPA President Ian Anderson has been trying to implement such a plan for several years but cannot find enough support from other members of the Board who find their own positions vulnerable.
So maybe it is time for a shake up.
 
P

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What the game needs is a BENEVOLENT DICTATOR.

The trouble is that there are plenty of good people in our community who do good things in their own little domain.
But they all have little things that dilute their stature and they come up short of the ability to grasp the nettle.

It needs a quality CEO who can command the respect of EVERYONE
 
L

Lynch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You make some really good points!

mikepage said:
SVB will be a guest at my house for a week or so as soon as DCC is over. We'll all see where he goes after that...

There's another issue bubbling up in these discussions that has nothing to do with conspiracies or conflicts with WPA events or the Lake Tahoe monster.

I think this is a good time to make some comments about 7' tables and their role in pool the future of pool. Take out your iphone and start playing "The Times They are a Changin" as some background music....

Let's look at some realities here. At Reno last year were a number of top US players, including SVB, Deuel, Woodward, Shuff, Bergman, couple of Dominquez's, Frost, and Saez, top Canadians Klatt and Moora, top Europeans like Shaw, Appleton, Hohmann and Immonen.... ... and then there's Kiamco, Biado, Orcollo...

When you look at this it is striking that a few top US players --Dechaine and Hall come to mind--near as I can tell haven't played in any of the Reno events in the last several years.

I think there is an "I don't do bar tables" attitude amongst some top players. But they should look around them! Dechaine should stuff that mindset in the same place he evidently stuffed his "I don't do One Pocket" mindset ;-).

Many of the old attitudes came from Valley bar tables with slow cloth, dead and inconsistent rails, stupid cueballs, and players that don't respect the game. But so much of that has changed. Now we're talking just smaller tables that play well, have good cloth and good balls. And here is another reality. You can fit more of them in a given space and you can transport them more easily. This is actually a big deal.

A few comments suggested short races on easy equipment is a joke... A single race-to-11 double elimination 9-ball tournament like the US Open--especially one that is not seeded--is a crap shoot too, and it's a crap shoot on 16 tables that takes more than a week to finish. At least at the USBTC, top players have three swings. This is another consequence of cost effectively being able to bring in a lot of tables. And if you did want to have one tournament, you could get away with longer races because you have more tables.


One good thing about the US Open--when it had 250 players that is--is the fact amateurs and regional shortstops can join in with the pros. Think about this. When that player you've never heard of from a small city in the middle of nowhere shows up at the US Open (or at the USBTC), that player plays like God and seems unbeatable many players back in that home city. The fact their guy is in the event competing with the pros is a big deal to them. That local interest in their hometown hero at a big event is a little pack of seeds that grows interest in pool.

We need more of these events. The US Open recently has been trying to go to larger entry fee and smaller field--so --other BB issues aside--that's not it.

The USBTC is it right now. It's the tournament that fits this bill. We need more of them. And we need the top players to participate. It will be used for Mosconi points? That's fantastic news! It means somebody is paying attention and has some ideas about what is good for pool....
Click to expand...
 
Floppage

Floppage

True Beginner
Silver Member
itsfroze said:
Oh really, that's the only way it works ?
The WPA sanctioned the last U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship.
How did that work out ?
Did they (WPA) protect the players ?
Did they make sure the money was in escrow ?
Did they threaten to pull their sanction if that wasn't done ?
How have they helped the players who are still not paid ?
Click to expand...

OK, but if they didn't sanction the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship would players and sponsors drop out? I am guessing a few would but most wouldn't. The fact is that if Barry held the tournament without the WPA seal of approval most of the same people would still show up. If that's the case then the WPA has no power. Since the only thing they could do to him for not complying is pull their name from the event.

Unless the players back an organization and all agree to bail if it isn't sanctioned, then sanctioning has no power.
 
D

Don Owen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
mikepage said:
SVB will be a guest at my house for a week or so as soon as DCC is over. We'll all see where he goes after that...

There's another issue bubbling up in these discussions that has nothing to do with conspiracies or conflicts with WPA events or the Lake Tahoe monster.

I think this is a good time to make some comments about 7' tables and their role in pool the future of pool. Take out your iphone and start playing "The Times They are a Changin" as some background music....

Let's look at some realities here. At Reno last year were a number of top US players, including SVB, Deuel, Woodward, Shuff, Bergman, couple of Dominquez's, Frost, and Saez, top Canadians Klatt and Moora, top Europeans like Shaw, Appleton, Hohmann and Immonen.... ... and then there's Kiamco, Biado, Orcollo...

When you look at this it is striking that a few top US players --Dechaine and Hall come to mind--near as I can tell haven't played in any of the Reno events in the last several years.

I think there is an "I don't do bar tables" attitude amongst some top players. But they should look around them! Dechaine should stuff that mindset in the same place he evidently stuffed his "I don't do One Pocket" mindset ;-).

Many of the old attitudes came from Valley bar tables with slow cloth, dead and inconsistent rails, stupid cueballs, and players that don't respect the game. But so much of that has changed. Now we're talking just smaller tables that play well, have good cloth and good balls. And here is another reality. You can fit more of them in a given space and you can transport them more easily. This is actually a big deal.

A few comments suggested short races on easy equipment is a joke... A single race-to-11 double elimination 9-ball tournament like the US Open--especially one that is not seeded--is a crap shoot too, and it's a crap shoot on 16 tables that takes more than a week to finish. At least at the USBTC, top players have three swings. This is another consequence of cost effectively being able to bring in a lot of tables. And if you did want to have one tournament, you could get away with longer races because you have more tables.


One good thing about the US Open--when it had 250 players that is--is the fact amateurs and regional shortstops can join in with the pros. Think about this. When that player you've never heard of from a small city in the middle of nowhere shows up at the US Open (or at the USBTC), that player plays like God and seems unbeatable many players back in that home city. The fact their guy is in the event competing with the pros is a big deal to them. That local interest in their hometown hero at a big event is a little pack of seeds that grows interest in pool.

We need more of these events. The US Open recently has been trying to go to larger entry fee and smaller field--so --other BB issues aside--that's not it.

The USBTC is it right now. It's the tournament that fits this bill. We need more of them. And we need the top players to participate. It will be used for Mosconi points? That's fantastic news! It means somebody is paying attention and has some ideas about what is good for pool....
Click to expand...

Good post.
 
P

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
itsfroze said:
Oh really, that's the only way it works ?
The WPA sanctioned the last U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship.
How did that work out ?
Did they (WPA) protect the players ?
Did they make sure the money was in escrow ?
Did they threaten to pull their sanction if that wasn't done ?
How have they helped the players who are still not paid ?
Click to expand...

THIS WAS THE SITUATION IN 2013 (and was probably similar last year). HOW WOULD YOU PERSONALLY HAVE SOLVED IT
The request to the WPA to sanction the event was submitted and although the added money fell a little short the tournament was given the right to be a WPA points event.
This status undeniably bumped up the field by 30-40 players including overseas entries.
But as the event approached it looked highly unlikely that the predicted entry levels would be reached. Prize money, upon which the WPA had agreed to accept a lower than normal figure, just to get a US based event on, would be reduced further.

So what could the WPA do? Pull the plug - with travelling players stuck with airfares. Take away ranking points - penalising players who earned them in good faith.
Escrow is just a word that has no place in the bankrupt world in which pool operates.
What was the solution?
 
Floppage

Floppage

True Beginner
Silver Member
pro9dg said:
THIS WAS THE SITUATION IN 2013 (and was probably similar last year). HOW WOULD YOU PERSONALLY HAVE SOLVED IT
The request to the WPA to sanction the event was submitted and although the added money fell a little short the tournament was given the right to be a WPA points event.
This status undeniably bumped up the field by 30-40 players including overseas entries.
But as the event approached it looked highly unlikely that the predicted entry levels would be reached. Prize money, upon which the WPA had agreed to accept a lower than normal figure, just to get a US based event on, would be reduced further.

So what could the WPA do? Pull the plug - with travelling players stuck with airfares. Take away ranking points - penalising players who earned them in good faith.
Escrow is just a word that has no place in the bankrupt world in which pool operates.
What was the solution?
Click to expand...

No one wants to hear this but the solution is to "water it down".

I use the running analogy a lot because I believe it fits. In the early 90's the hard core runners hated that the marathon was becoming a bucket list event for newbies who didn't really care about the sport but when Oprah ran the NYC marathon the number of women who started participating in distance running events doubled by the next year. And since then has grown to 5 times the number that participated in them in 1990. (somewhere around 10 million of them, to be exact) The hard core runners resent them but the bucket list runners are paying for the bulk of the industry and kept a few major marathons in the black even when the economy tanked.

The hard core pool players don't like the idea of bar table, destination events where amateurs get to play right next to professionals and in that format might actually win a game but I'm guessing the sponsors and event promoters would like to see more of those people show up. They buy things like t-shirts, new equipment, spend money in the hotel and bar and in general drop a lot more cash than the pro players with no expectation of payout in return.

Professional Pool is nearly bankrupt because its leaving too much money on the table.

I didn't want to watch pool before I played it. Why would I? Now that I am learning it I am a regular viewer. Want more people watching pool? Make it more accessible to them. It's pretty simple. Start catering to a larger audience and you'll have a larger audience.
 
DogsPlayingPool

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
pro9dg said:
THIS WAS THE SITUATION IN 2013 (and was probably similar last year). HOW WOULD YOU PERSONALLY HAVE SOLVED IT
The request to the WPA to sanction the event was submitted and although the added money fell a little short the tournament was given the right to be a WPA points event.
This status undeniably bumped up the field by 30-40 players including overseas entries.
But as the event approached it looked highly unlikely that the predicted entry levels would be reached. Prize money, upon which the WPA had agreed to accept a lower than normal figure, just to get a US based event on, would be reduced further.

So what could the WPA do? Pull the plug - with travelling players stuck with airfares. Take away ranking points - penalising players who earned them in good faith.
Escrow is just a word that has no place in the bankrupt world in which pool operates.
What was the solution?
Click to expand...

Valid point, it was a tough situation to penalize the players just to stick it to Barry. And there is also some tangential benefit to U.S. professional pool to have a sanctioned event in the USA.

But surely the WPA had at least some awareness of the past issues with the advertised added money actually being there. After all, an added money minimum is part of the requirements for sanctioning. It seems reasonable to conclude this would also suggest the money must be available when the tournament is held. Did the WPA wait until the conclusion of the event to get paid their sanctioning fee? And was last year the first time the US Open had WPA sanctioning and there was a problem paying out the advertised purse?

But all that aside, let last year slide for a moment. But now, what does the WPA do about this issue when and if Barry comes to them for sanctioning again this year? At that point any players that have made travel plans and are stuck for airfare and hotel cancellation fees had made the decision to enter without regard to WPA points. It will be especially interesting since it appears a crew of Taiwan players will be coming this year, probably adding to the pressure to have ranking points attached to the event. At some point the WPA loses the right to use the defense of "What can we do? We already sanctioned the event and pulling that sanctioning would penalize innocent players that relied on it when they entered."

As I mentioned in the Watchez thread, it could come down to a staring contest and it'll be interesting to see who blinks first, Barry or the WPA.
 
Last edited:
CSI - Ozzy

CSI - Ozzy

Banned
mikepage said:
SVB will be a guest at my house for a week or so as soon as DCC is over. We'll all see where he goes after that...

There's another issue bubbling up in these discussions that has nothing to do with conspiracies or conflicts with WPA events or the Lake Tahoe monster.

I think this is a good time to make some comments about 7' tables and their role in pool the future of pool. Take out your iphone and start playing "The Times They are a Changin" as some background music....

Let's look at some realities here. At Reno last year were a number of top US players, including SVB, Deuel, Woodward, Shuff, Bergman, couple of Dominquez's, Frost, and Saez, top Canadians Klatt and Moora, top Europeans like Shaw, Appleton, Hohmann and Immonen.... ... and then there's Kiamco, Biado, Orcollo...

When you look at this it is striking that a few top US players --Dechaine and Hall come to mind--near as I can tell haven't played in any of the Reno events in the last several years.

I think there is an "I don't do bar tables" attitude amongst some top players. But they should look around them! Dechaine should stuff that mindset in the same place he evidently stuffed his "I don't do One Pocket" mindset ;-).

Many of the old attitudes came from Valley bar tables with slow cloth, dead and inconsistent rails, stupid cueballs, and players that don't respect the game. But so much of that has changed. Now we're talking just smaller tables that play well, have good cloth and good balls. And here is another reality. You can fit more of them in a given space and you can transport them more easily. This is actually a big deal.

A few comments suggested short races on easy equipment is a joke... A single race-to-11 double elimination 9-ball tournament like the US Open--especially one that is not seeded--is a crap shoot too, and it's a crap shoot on 16 tables that takes more than a week to finish. At least at the USBTC, top players have three swings. This is another consequence of cost effectively being able to bring in a lot of tables. And if you did want to have one tournament, you could get away with longer races because you have more tables.


One good thing about the US Open--when it had 250 players that is--is the fact amateurs and regional shortstops can join in with the pros. Think about this. When that player you've never heard of from a small city in the middle of nowhere shows up at the US Open (or at the USBTC), that player plays like God and seems unbeatable many players back in that home city. The fact their guy is in the event competing with the pros is a big deal to them. That local interest in their hometown hero at a big event is a little pack of seeds that grows interest in pool.

We need more of these events. The US Open recently has been trying to go to larger entry fee and smaller field--so --other BB issues aside--that's not it.

The USBTC is it right now. It's the tournament that fits this bill. We need more of them. And we need the top players to participate. It will be used for Mosconi points? That's fantastic news! It means somebody is paying attention and has some ideas about what is good for pool....
Click to expand...

This is a great post! Our industry needs more people like Mike Page.

Another thing that would help is if the silent majority spoke up more often. There are thousands of people that read these threads every day but are reluctant to post anything because there are 5-10 people on here (the vocal minority) that will burn you at the stake if you post anything positive. These people take over the forums and entire threads take a confrontational tone.

This thread contains great news! Two of the largest industry promoters are working together to reach a broader audience and give players more opportunity to earn a spot on the USA Team. The idea that this is bad because the events are on 7ft tables is just plain wrong. Statistically speaking, and Mike Page can back this up, the same players end up at the top no matter the table size...7ft, 9ft, 10ft...it's the same every time. Sure, a lesser known bar table monster will occasionally win a single event. However, the idea that he will finish in the top three through the course of numerous events statistically will not happen. Those are the statistics, not assumptions.

While I too prefer to play on 9ft tables, after working inside this industry for the last year, I am convinced that forcing 9ft table pool down the throats of people in this country is not a winning solution. Here are the facts. Participation in 7ft events dwarfs 9ft events. Viewership of 7ft matches on YouTube dwarfs 9ft matches. Sales of 7ft tables dwarf sales of 9ft tables.

While our industry has several problems, maybe, just maybe, one of them is that we continue to cater to a small niche rather than a much larger audience. Think about it...what if playing on 7ft tables increased tournament participation by 20%? What if it increased viewership by 20%? If 20% more people are playing and watching pool, wouldn't everyone benefit? Sales in cues, tables, cloth, chalk, tips, cue repair, apparel, live streaming, etc. would all increase. This would mean more money in the industry, more money in sponsorship, and more money to the players. Do you think professional players would enjoy playing on 7ft tables if they had more fans and were paid more?

Alternatively, we can just keep doing what we have been doing for the last 20 years and watch the death spiral continue.

My rant is over and now we can watch those 5-10 anonymous posters begin to chime in with absurd accusations, assumptions, and conspiracies while the silent majority says nothing. Here goes....wait for it....
 
CSI - Ozzy

CSI - Ozzy

Banned
Floppage said:
No one wants to hear this but the solution is to "water it down".

I use the running analogy a lot because I believe it fits. In the early 90's the hard core runners hated that the marathon was becoming a bucket list event for newbies who didn't really care about the sport but when Oprah ran the NYC marathon the number of women who started participating in distance running events doubled by the next year. And since then has grown to 5 times the number that participated in them in 1990. (somewhere around 10 million of them, to be exact) The hard core runners resent them but the bucket list runners are paying for the bulk of the industry and kept a few major marathons in the black even when the economy tanked.

The hard core pool players don't like the idea of bar table, destination events where amateurs get to play right next to professionals and in that format might actually win a game but I'm guessing the sponsors and event promoters would like to see more of those people show up. They buy things like t-shirts, new equipment, spend money in the hotel and bar and in general drop a lot more cash than the pro players with no expectation of payout in return.

Professional Pool is nearly bankrupt because its leaving too much money on the table.

I didn't want to watch pool before I played it. Why would I? Now that I am learning it I am a regular viewer. Want more people watching pool? Make it more accessible to them. It's pretty simple. Start catering to a larger audience and you'll have a larger audience.
Click to expand...

100% accurate
 
watchez

watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
pro9dg said:
THIS WAS THE SITUATION IN 2013 (and was probably similar last year). HOW WOULD YOU PERSONALLY HAVE SOLVED IT
The request to the WPA to sanction the event was submitted and although the added money fell a little short the tournament was given the right to be a WPA points event.
This status undeniably bumped up the field by 30-40 players including overseas entries.
But as the event approached it looked highly unlikely that the predicted entry levels would be reached. Prize money, upon which the WPA had agreed to accept a lower than normal figure, just to get a US based event on, would be reduced further.

So what could the WPA do? Pull the plug - with travelling players stuck with airfares. Take away ranking points - penalising players who earned them in good faith.
Escrow is just a word that has no place in the bankrupt world in which pool operates.
What was the solution?
Click to expand...

The WPA could give back their 5% so the players could get paid. Then when Barry comes up with the money, they could get theirs.
 
DogsPlayingPool

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
Here's something interesting from the WPA sanctioning catalog:

Escrow:

For all new organisers, the prize fund must be secured in escrow no less than forty-five days prior to the commencement date of the main event. This procedure will apply to all new organisers/promoters. It will also apply to any organiser/promoter who hasn’t met his prize money payouts within a reasonable time period after the tournament has ended.

If the funds have not been secured in escrow within the time period, the WPA is obligated to advise the players of the situation.
Click to expand...

Here's the link to the complete catalog:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/tournament_sanctioning_catalogue
 
JCIN

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
pro9dg said:
What the game needs is a BENEVOLENT DICTATOR.

The trouble is that there are plenty of good people in our community who do good things in their own little domain.
But they all have little things that dilute their stature and they come up short of the ability to grasp the nettle.

It needs a quality CEO who can command the respect of EVERYONE
Click to expand...

Ok. I will do it.

Everyone do what I say and things will get better.

Whats that....well no I'm going to you pay you. Just do what I say because its good.

Hey...where is everyone going? Guys....come on guys...








See how that works?

One time in my life have I seen everyone in pool get in line. Do you know when and why that was? Until a similar situation happens again dreams of anyone following anyone are exactly that.
 
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