The era of the "poke-stroke"

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Shane and Alex shot a stroke shot at the Open for an hour 100 a shot and neither ever got close... Earl and Buddy would have robbed them... I'll post the diagram and being a dinosaur that shot would have been the only even chance I had on the table with them.. Grew up on the old cloth and can still get whitey up out of the mud for special appearances......
 

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
I personally don't like the rails on Diamond tables as compared to Gold Crowns. It's as if its made of the material that super balls used to be made out of.

Simple off the rail position on a GC is a different animal on a Diamond as it seems to have a little extra pop that leaves you long on your shape. Additionally they bank much differently as banks you hit a certain element of speed on GC's just doesn't react the same on Diamonds, on those you have to take the speed off as well as English as the ball reacts funny. In my experimentation on them there are banks you can hit on Diamonds that are impossible to hit on a GC as with the Diamonds there are a million little nuances you can achieve with different combinations of speed and English but at the end of the day I prefer a GC & the rails they come with.

As far as stroke goes Simonis changed the game a bit over old directional cloth but you could still open your stroke up. Combine Simonis and a Diamond with those rails they have and you don't really need a stroke to move the ball around the table.
 

SakuJack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shane and Alex shot a stroke shot at the Open for an hour 100 a shot and neither ever got close... Earl and Buddy would have robbed them... I'll post the diagram and being a dinosaur that shot would have been the only even chance I had on the table with them.. Grew up on the old cloth and can still get whitey up out of the mud for special appearances......

would like to see the diagram

I'd like to see it, too. I love seeing pros messing around with stroke shots.


I wouldn't necessarily say players poked at the ball these days. The best players cue the ball very well. The big long strokes of the older players may be a thing of the past, but I think that has as much to do with the pros not playing with bucket pockets as it does the faster rails/cloth.
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to see some examples of this "poking" you are talking about...
Have you seen Niels, Mika or Thorsten play?
I don't see any of them using a poke stroke.
Look at the previous generation of players. They truly used a poke stroke. Mosconi, Fatts etc are as far from what constitutes a perfect stroke as you can be.
I have to agree about Earls stroke, it's a thing of beauty!
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to see some examples of this "poking" you are talking about...
Have you seen Niels, Mika or Thorsten play?
I don't see any of them using a poke stroke.
Look at the previous generation of players. They truly used a poke stroke. Mosconi, Fatts etc are as far from what constitutes a perfect stroke as you can be.
I have to agree about Earls stroke, it's a thing of beauty!

I'm going to have to agree with you as well on this. After attending the last turning stone, watching mika, shane, thorsten, earl, etc, warm up and play. They clearly have a full stroke and can let it out when just free stroking the cue ball around the table. Maybe the british players with a snooker background don't have such a fluid full stroke, and that's what the op suggests, but even they, when needed can let it out and get through the ball.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I think of "poke stroke," Allen Hopkins comes to mind, and it works for him, quite effectively. The best finals I ever saw was between Allen and Ginky at Snookers in Rhode Island. Wow!

Check out Allen Hopkins' poke stroke ---> HERE. :D
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I think of "poke stroke," Allen Hopkins comes to mind, and it works for him, quite effectively. The best finals I ever saw was between Allen and Ginky at Snookers in Rhode Island. Wow!

Check out Allen Hopkins' poke stroke ---> HERE. :D

Great example. When I think of Allen Hopkins, I always heard it described as "punch stroke" because poking can't really describe what he does. to get the action he gets, he is punching for sure. And you are correct, it works for him quite well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAM

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only thing I've noticed about some of the top younger players is the way they stroke. It's not really a poke, but rather they use their hand more. They break their wrists or exaggerate their forward stroke with a "clutching" motion.

MD and Shane McMinn don't have as much arm travel and deliver a great amount of stroke with their hands. The hand movement adds to the stroke length by at least 6 inches. Shaw pulls this off pretty well, also.

The long stroke may be a thing of the past.

Best,
Mike
 

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
Tommy Kennedy, too...almost no wind up. And he's been around since before Simonis 860 became the industry standard.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
definitely a different beast!

I date back to the days of the dinosaur, or at least there were a few dinosaur tables around. A few halls with ten foot tables only, deep directional cloth, slow rails. Played with clay balls too. When hitting clay balls on a ten footer with directional cloth you are glad to have a cue as big around as a baseball bat or close to it to move balls around, it is a totally different game. You often have to come with a big stroke or you are SOL.

Four or five years ago somebody opened a hall and got ahold of some tables not used since the early eighties. These weren't true old school tables but they played a lot different than today's tables. I jumped speed several balls on those tables. That hall didn't last long though, not sure why. It had rapidly expanded to take over the bar next to it and grow some more tables and I thought it was doing good. Next thing I knew it was closed.

There is rarely if ever the need for the stroke and weight of cues used on the old tables now. It does make the game easier to learn, debatable how much easier it makes the game. I think the new cloth and rails have made finesse shots much harder. To shoot a shot to just brush a ball and roll to a rail a foot away requires a feather light touch. Trying to judge between a feather, three-quarter feather, and feather and a quarter hit is far tougher than judging between various light strokes on the old cloth and with the old rails.

With rare exceptions none of the players, even pro's play shape the way it was once played. Not much need to on today's tables but I think the extreme difficulty of playing precise shape on today's tables has killed position play. Rarely mentioned but the very hard tips favored today probably add to the issues. I would think a very soft tip would work better but they aren't in style at the moment, haven't been for years.

Why the very long bridge now? It isn't needed for any reason I can imagine except occasionally reaching a shot. Used to be a short bridge except when a long bridge was needed for a particular shot. Most players would pocket more balls with a shorter bridge today but they see top players using a long bridge so a long bridge must be better!

The game has changed tremendously in the last fifty to seventy-five years. In some ways it is better, in some worse, mostly it is just different with trade offs to the old era and modern era. I liked having to consider the cloth roll when playing a shot. I definitely liked slower cushions a lot better. I played some brand new cushions not long ago. Boingy took on all new meaning! I think some middle ground between old and new would be better than either. I'm not talking about the directional cloth I like here, just a little slower cloth and much slower rails than some used today. Players would never be happy having to remember how to play the cloth for the shot after playing nondirectional cloth for years.

Hu
 

SakuJack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe the british players with a snooker background don't have such a fluid full stroke, and that's what the op suggests, but even they, when needed can let it out and get through the ball.

It depends on what you mean by fluidity. If you're using snooker fundamentals, and cueing the ball properly, you won't be "poking" at anything. Look at the length of Melling's back swing as an example.

Daz uses a short, compact stroke. Maybe that's what the kind of thing the OP is referring to? I'm not sure.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It depends on what you mean by fluidity. If you're using snooker fundamentals, and cueing the ball properly, you won't be "poking" at anything. Look at the length of Melling's back swing as an example.

Daz uses a short, compact stroke. Maybe that's what the kind of thing the OP is referring to? I'm not sure.

Yeah, i was thinking Appleton (who came up with English eight ball) but I really watched Jason Shaw closely at turning stone (former snooker player) and it was a more compact, precise stroke. And I wouldn't call it a punch stroke (or poke stroke as op has). It just isn't that Filipino stroke.

Mark Wilson has an entire chapter dedicated to power stroke training in his book. He tells of visiting the Philippines to train with Efren, and because of the humidity and conditions, he had to really let his stroke out to move the cue. So this is where he developed a power stroke training regiment into his curriculum as an instructor. It's a great chapter that makes you stretch your legs in terms of stroke delivery as part of your preliminary training.
 

medallio

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If only I could have an issue w/fast tables. Majority of tables in my town are extremely slow. Balls don't spread and position often comes up way shorter than anticipated.Ughh
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Having watched the World Cup of Pool and other recent pool events, I have come to the realization that this is indeed the era of the poke-stroke. Sure there are dinosaurs like Earl and anomalies like Shane, but apart from them almost everyone pokes at the ball. I believe this is due to the fact that the cloth used nowadays is very fast (this happened 20-30 years ago) and the rails are getting faster (more recent development) along with the pockets getting ever tighter. The huge, long and smooth strokes of the Mizeraks and the Halls are now extinct, as they are no longer needed, and indeed would be a disadvantage. There is simply no point in stroking the ball anymore and even players who have big strokes are now poking the ball more and more, shortening their stroke and seemingly limiting their follow through.

I for one feel that the rails nowadays are too fast. I know that this sounds hopelessly conservative coming from someone relatively young (at least not an old fart). Recently a guy complained that the tables at our poolhall (Gold Crown with new Simonis and cushions) were too slow! don't know wether to laugh or cry about this, but this what it has come to.After watching modern pool clips, watch some old clips and it looks like the rails are completely dead and they are playing on shag carpet, even when the conditions were brand new. I What do you guys think, is there such a thing as cushions that are too fast? What about the cloth?
It is not really anything new. Danny D., Lassiter, Hopkins, Jimmy Reid and a lot of others had very minimal strokes. It is the stroke I prefer, the less is better theory.
 

SakuJack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, i was thinking Appleton (who came up with English eight ball) but I really watched Jason Shaw closely at turning stone (former snooker player) and it was a more compact, precise stroke. And I wouldn't call it a punch stroke (or poke stroke as op has). It just isn't that Filipino stroke.

Mark Wilson has an entire chapter dedicated to power stroke training in his book. He tells of visiting the Philippines to train with Efren, and because of the humidity and conditions, he had to really let his stroke out to move the cue. So this is where he developed a power stroke training regiment into his curriculum as an instructor. It's a great chapter that makes you stretch your legs in terms of stroke delivery as part of your preliminary training.

Ah interesting. I hadn't noticed it with Shaw but I'll keep it in mind next time I watch a match with him in.

As far as I know Shaw isn't really a snooker player, though. He's an English 8-ball guy, like Daz.
 
Top