So I Joined the APA.. BIG Mistake

jmarcum1984 · Jul 22, 2014

I have read this entire thread, and I learned how an APA rule is interpreted (thanks for explaining), and I learned that some people like league and others do not, and some people play league for fun and others for other reasons.

It seems that most people did not think the OP had much leg to stand on and when it comes to "the rules", he didn't. However, I think the post is really about Good intentions VS Bad intentions. I think the OP made an unintentional mistake and the other team captain admitted he was intentionally being a douche. If I had to choose which team I would play for, it would be for the team that did not try to be a jerk. That is what I think this thread was originally about. It is very unlikely that venting on a web site is going to get the APA to "rethink" their rule book.

uwate · Jul 23, 2014

Ive played 4 years now of APA and ive seen this exact thing come up a few times. It feels unfair, it seems like the other team should handle things in a sportsmanlike manner, but if you really sit down and think about it, you have only yourself to blame. The other capt is taking full advantage of the rules no doubt, but isnt that completely within his right? You gave him a big ole lasso of rope to string you up, after all, so why the big campaign on AZB and Facebook?

All the answers were there, and all this arguing over this by you is essentially you asking for special consideration because you made a pretty big mistake and needed some compassion and understanding by your opponent and got none. The rule book isnt that big and the majority of the book is skim material that covers game play rules. There is only a few actual pages of rules that you needed to study.

You might bristle at this but im with the camp that you need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to plead for special treatment. Silver lining is now you know the other capt is an opportunistic asshola. Thats important info that you can also share with other capts in an intel trade on teams.

Skippy27 · Jul 28, 2014

First off, I started off playing in APA and still do and enjoy it. I also play in a MO8 league that uses a team handicap system. I as a new captain made that error in MO8 once. It cost us the match but you don't automatically lose because of it so I know somewhat of how you feel.

As you know it is the rule and you did screw up. However, it was very very poor sportsmanship for that other captain to allow this to happen. He clearly knew you were about to do this and waited for the break for this to happen so he can jump up and declare the win. This clearly is not what the APA teaches and they frown upon it. I believe the handbook even mentions situations of allowing your opponent to foul before calling the foul and discourages it as it is a friendly league for all. Then to do it in a league match that is of very little importance?

I think the overall problem here is that the captain of the other team is a jerk and has poor sportsmanship and I would encourage you to continue on for at least another session or 2. Then make your choice.

fast&loose designs · Jul 28, 2014

I understand all angles here. What I don't understand is why everyone keeps referring ONLY to the part where I went over 23. Do I need to recap for those that didn't read the whole thread? Here's what happened:

1. I went over 23 cap unknowingly by 3 points - (illegal) - Penalized 51 points
2. Tom Tao waited for my player to break before informing me (legal)
3. Tom rushed over and told me I lost that match, along with all others, and he wins every match 15-0. Wins the night 75-0. - (lie - illegal?) - No penalty
4. Tom calls LO, who gives him info that Tom interprets as "Only last game forfeited - all other points count. Last match score is 15-0 in favor of Tom."
5. I call LR, who gives me info stating "Only last game forfeited - all other points count. Last match score is 15-0 in favor of Tom."
6. I try to rally Tom's team to convince him to play it out and do the right thing. After all, we are there to PLAY pool. Team is afraid of/uncomfortable with/not friendly with Tom, and do not try to convince him.
7. Tom and I BOTH write in 51-44 score on scoresheets; Tom signs both, I only sign mine.
8. I file a complaint with San Gabriel Valley APA via email a few days later, stating all of the above.
9. I check stats online the next day or two. I find out that score is NOT kept at 51-44; score is input as 44-0. I find this out on my own, not notified by SGV APA.
10. I ask LR what the hell is going on, she tells me she and LO mistakenly reported to BOTH Tom Tao and I that only last game should be forfeited. I argue that the LO and LR BOTH made calls (as referees) to the fact that score should be 51-44, not 44-0. Shouldn't that score stand, AS CALLED?
11. I also argue that we have TWO SIGNED DOCUMENTS showing score at 51-44. Does this form not have any weight?
12. I find out that Tom has submitted a complaint that I "threatened" his teammates. After calling all those on the team, it is determined that none of them felt threatened by me. No penalty here.
13. I am informed that there is more digging that needs to be done, since LO and LR were not aware of the signed scoresheets. WHAT?! Don't they READ those things?
14. Owner of San Gabriel Valley APA gets on Facebook, and writes his arguments against me on the case in a crass, rude, and sarcastic manner. Totally unprofessional and I'm sure not something the APA would approve of.
15. Still waiting on final word. Case is still open (I think?)

Those that argue that I should take FULL responsibility - I WOULD if THIS had happened:

1. I went over cap.
2. Tom Tao informs me that I lose the whole night's points, and I lose 44-0.
3. I confirm this with LO.
4. I am pissed at Tom Tao of USS AssholeForLife, but have no grounds for argument.
5. I apologize to teammates and take it as a lesson.

However, this is NOT what happened ^^

Understand that when I make a mistake, I take responsibility. On numerous occasions - EVEN THIS PAST WEEK - I made mistakes on rules that I paid for (this week, I assumed that when my opponent blasted the 2 ball off the table, but not the cue ball, that it was a foul and that my player had ball in hand. WRONG.). We gave up ball in hand to our opponent, no argument. We still won.

center pocket · Jul 28, 2014

SkyscraperChris said:
Hey all. As some of you may already know, I joined the APA this season as a 9 ball captain in the San Gabriel Valley in SoCal just over 2 months ago because I was looking for a change in my game, my regular pool playing routine, and to make some new friends. What happened in a match just over a week ago is so appalling that I'm highly likely going to quit after only 1 season.

Before you think this is an APA bashing thread, you should read what happened.

For the most part, it's been fun. I haven't learned anything new, but I've made some awesome new friends (all of whom were also new to the APA) - and for me that was enough to keep me on board. I haven't had to deal with much of the BS that I know goes on all the time in leagues, especially the APA. The most I've had to deal with is the occasional bickering from opponents about my skill level and those of my teammates. But that's a neverending story throughout all of the pool world, and I'm used to that, being a tournament director at different pool halls, I've dealt with the bickering before.

On our Thursday 9 ball match, we came up against a team named "999" - a team in 7th or 8th place captained by a guy named Tom Tao, while we were I believe tied for 2nd/3rd. Let me remind you that I'm new to the APA, as are all of the team members I have on my roster with me.

For most of the night, business is as usual, there are no incidents, and we are getting along well with our opponents, despite beating them in all first four matches, and we are leading 51-29. I started by playing my 4 against their 4, and won 12-8. Then my 5 beat their 4 12-8. I played the third match (I'm a 7) and beat their 6 13-7. In the fourth match, my 5 defeated their 5, 16-4. As you may have already figured out, I only have 2 points of the 23 left to use. However, I didn't remember to calculate for this, as my teammates' skill levels hadn't been too high before but by this week were high enough for me to not notice we were going over the cap. In the 5th match, I called another 5 after they threw out a 2.

Both players grabbed their gear, took some time to settle in, and lagged. After my player left for a brief few minutes to run to the restroom, he returned and broke. Immediately after breaking, Captain Tom Tao of the USS I'mLosingBadSoI'mGonnaBeAJackass, LEAPS off his barstool to come over to me and shout "You guys just lost. You've just forfeited ALL of your matches from the very beginning and we WIN. None of your points or wins matter anymore. You went over your 23 points and we win every game 15-0. We win tonight 75-0."

I only read to here and then I saw myself breaking Tom Tao's jaw.

TheNewSharkster · Jul 28, 2014

SkyscraperChris said:
I understand all angles here. What I don't understand is why everyone keeps referring ONLY to the part where I went over 23. Do I need to recap for those that didn't read the whole thread? Here's what happened:

1. I went over 23 cap unknowingly by 3 points - (illegal) - Penalized 51 points
2. Tom Tao waited for my player to break before informing me (legal)
3. Tom rushed over and told me I lost that match, along with all others, and he wins every match 15-0. Wins the night 75-0. - (lie - illegal?) - No penalty
4. Tom calls LO, who gives him info that Tom interprets as "Only last game forfeited - all other points count. Last match score is 15-0 in favor of Tom."
5. I call LR, who gives me info stating "Only last game forfeited - all other points count. Last match score is 15-0 in favor of Tom."
6. I try to rally Tom's team to convince him to play it out and do the right thing. After all, we are there to PLAY pool. Team is afraid of/uncomfortable with/not friendly with Tom, and do not try to convince him.
7. Tom and I BOTH write in 51-44 score on scoresheets; Tom signs both, I only sign mine.
8. I file a complaint with San Gabriel Valley APA via email a few days later, stating all of the above.
9. I check stats online the next day or two. I find out that score is NOT kept at 51-44; score is input as 44-0. I find this out on my own, not notified by SGV APA.
10. I ask LR what the hell is going on, she tells me she and LO mistakenly reported to BOTH Tom Tao and I that only last game should be forfeited. I argue that the LO and LR BOTH made calls (as referees) to the fact that score should be 51-44, not 44-0. Shouldn't that score stand, AS CALLED?
11. I also argue that we have TWO SIGNED DOCUMENTS showing score at 51-44. Does this form not have any weight?
12. I find out that Tom has submitted a complaint that I "threatened" his teammates. After calling all those on the team, it is determined that none of them felt threatened by me. No penalty here.
13. I am informed that there is more digging that needs to be done, since LO and LR were not aware of the signed scoresheets. WHAT?! Don't they READ those things?
14. Owner of San Gabriel Valley APA gets on Facebook, and writes his arguments against me on the case in a crass, rude, and sarcastic manner. Totally unprofessional and I'm sure not something the APA would approve of.
15. Still waiting on final word. Case is still open (I think?)

Those that argue that I should take FULL responsibility - I WOULD if THIS had happened:

1. I went over cap.
2. Tom Tao informs me that I lose the whole night's points, and I lose 44-0.
3. I confirm this with LO.
4. I am pissed at Tom Tao of USS AssholeForLife, but have no grounds for argument.
5. I apologize to teammates and take it as a lesson.

However, this is NOT what happened ^^

Understand that when I make a mistake, I take responsibility. On numerous occasions - EVEN THIS PAST WEEK - I made mistakes on rules that I paid for (this week, I assumed that when my opponent blasted the 2 ball off the table, but not the cue ball, that it was a foul and that my player had ball in hand. WRONG.). We gave up ball in hand to our opponent, no argument. We still won.

Let me get this straight. Your contention is that since both score sheets were signed with a score of 51-44 that you should be excused from the penalty of exceeding the 23 rule?

fast&loose designs · Jul 28, 2014

TheNewSharkster said:
Let me get this straight. Your contention is that since both score sheets were signed with a score of 51-44 that you should be excused from the penalty of exceeding the 23 rule?

I like how you select what you want to read and ignore the rest. No, you haven't gotten it straight just yet. Try again. You must be first mate on the USS IThinkI'mAPoolPlayer.

Billiardsfan · Jul 28, 2014

Seriously, IF your stated version is the factual version and without error (intentional or unintentional) then yes, you got shafted. If everything is true, then this other captain is a jerk for sure. If all is as you say it is, then the LO needs to live up to what they said.

But for sure, YOU need to let it go at this point. YOU need to move past it or you will never enjoy another evening of APA league again and most likely will make others suffer because of your bad experience.

krupa · Jul 28, 2014

SkyscraperChris said:
I like how you select what you want to read and ignore the rest. No, you haven't gotten it straight just yet. Try again. You must be first mate on the USS IThinkI'mAPoolPlayer.

The part that I picked up on was that for as pissed off as you are, you still went back and payed to play again. For all your arrogance and name calling, you're still the one making mistakes.

Allen Brown · Jul 28, 2014

Chris, is your team still playing in the APA.....or have y'all decided to call it quits?

TheNewSharkster · Jul 28, 2014

SkyscraperChris said:
I like how you select what you want to read and ignore the rest. No, you haven't gotten it straight just yet. Try again. You must be first mate on the USS IThinkI'mAPoolPlayer.

You must be the first mate on the USS Ican'tReadAsimpleRuleBook and the captain of USS IcannotCountTo23. Douche

fast&loose designs · Jul 28, 2014

Allen Brown said:
Chris, is your team still playing in the APA.....or have y'all decided to call it quits?

We're gonna finish off the season because my teammates want to play, and we actually still have a good chance of making it to playoffs. We went from dead last to 1st place in 3 weeks. We would be 3 points behind 1st right now if it wasn't for this fiasco. We will finish out the season, and I'll be done. 2 guys already quit, plus me and another guy. All of us were new, and now that we got a taste of what goes on, how players win, and how the APA handles situations like this, we want no part.

Banks · Jul 28, 2014

SkyscraperChris said:
You must be first mate on the USS IThinkI'mAPoolPlayer.

This is why the average person and lower league player doesn't like "players", because they're always trying to talk down to them, even if they're no better than average.

justadub · Jul 28, 2014

Banks said:
This is why the average person and lower league player doesn't like "players", because they're always trying to talk down to them, even if they're no better than average.

Its funny, I don't call myself a "pool player" with any sort of pretense. And I certainly recognize it here when folks talk about playing APA....

Still, as inferior a pool player as I am....I can still....fill in the blanks.

Allen Brown · Jul 28, 2014

SkyscraperChris said:
We're gonna finish off the season because my teammates want to play, and we actually still have a good chance of making it to playoffs. We went from dead last to 1st place in 3 weeks. We would be 3 points behind 1st right now if it wasn't for this fiasco. We will finish out the season, and I'll be done. 2 guys already quit, plus me and another guy. All of us were new, and now that we got a taste of what goes on, how players win, and how the APA handles situations like this, we want no part.

It will be interesting to see if the organization tries black-balling y'all or giving you the run around later on in the season. I wish you the best.

Nola · Jul 28, 2014

Hello fellow AZers,

Our team accidentally went over the 23 rule by 1 point a session or two ago. No one on either team noticed at the time, and both captains signed the scoresheets at the end of the night. The next day, after being told who on our team played last night, I told our captain that we went over the max handicap by one point. Our captain then phoned the LO to tell him we had violated the 23 rule. Our LO said that since both scoresheets were signed, the ending scores were to stand. Not only did we not forfeit the last match, we were not penalized at all for violating the 23 rule. I guess the rules vary from franchise to franchise.

Nola

sfleinen · Jul 28, 2014

justadub said:
[...]
Still, as inferior a pool player as I am....I can still....fill in the blanks.

You mean, fill the pockets? Not heard 'em called blanks before. You know, you should empty those out once in a while, or else a pocketed ball is going to bounce back out...

-Sean

justadub · Jul 28, 2014

sfleinen said:
You mean, fill the pockets? Not heard 'em called blanks before. You know, you should empty those out once in a while, or else a pocketed ball is going to bounce back out...

-Sean

Awww, c'mon. As an inferior player, I don't worry about things like that. That would insinuate that I expect to make a ball

StuartTKelley · Jul 29, 2014

It's a shame. Though it was technically your fault for not being up on the rules regarding this and not paying attention, the other captain knowingly awaited for your player to break before he decided to drop the proverbial bomb on you. Absolute rubbish and zero class on his part. I would have handled it by allowing you to play your 2 or at least told you beforehand what would happen if your 5 broke. This wasn't for the national championship....just league night. At least you know now! I also think because your L/O told you one thing the night of the match and then went back on it when the sheets were turned in ,that you guys should be allowed to replay that match....Just my opinion.

fast&loose designs · Jul 29, 2014

UPDATE:

The LO of the San Gabriel Valley APA gave Tom Tao the option to either take a 44-51 loss or a 44-0 win after the LO found out that both Tom and I signed our scoresheets 44-51. Where is the logic in that? Why in the hell would a LO allow him to make that decision? Of COURSE he's gonna take a 44-0 win! Needless to say, I'll be appealing this whole ruling to the corporate level of APA. This thing went from an ordeal to a fiasco to a circus.

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