Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Instruction & Ask the pros > Ask The Instructor
Reload this Page Something Your Teacher Can Teach You...
Reply
Page 5 of 8 « First 345 67 Last »
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#61)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,462
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
11-27-2017, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
When you stated "leave the table" I read it as going off the table to the floor. Actually leaving the table. Climbing that ob, growing a pair of wings, and saying "You ain't gonna hit me no mo. I'm outta here, Adios, arrivederci, sayounara, vaarwel, and goodbye."
Oh! Lol! That explains the disconnect. No wings, just a slight hop.


POOLOLOGY
Brian Crist
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#62)
FranCrimi
AzB Silver Member
FranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2010
   
11-27-2017, 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
I am hitting it pretty softly, so that it hits the rail and bounces out a little bit so that it won't scratch. If I hit it harder it would do like you are writing about. Why would it go along the rail if I'm hitting the one ball directly if not force follow?
Yes, I'm thinking exactly that -- that it wasn't a force follow shot. You definitely needed some speed to execute the shot, but there wasn't a whole lot of top spin going on so it looked like the cb just went into normal roll after the slide wore off. Yes, I think you can execute that shot if the cb hits the ob at the correct angle, which it did.


Been Verified. Supporter of responsible teaching. Background checks for instructors, especially those who teach kids.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#63)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,462
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
11-28-2017, 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Yes, I'm thinking exactly that -- that it wasn't a force follow shot. You definitely needed some speed to execute the shot, but there wasn't a whole lot of top spin going on so it looked like the cb just went into normal roll after the slide wore off. Yes, I think you can execute that shot if the cb hits the ob at the correct angle, which it did.
So how much topspin is needed to classify a shot as a "force follow" shot? On a typical follow shot (at soft to medium speeds) the CB hits the OB and then follows its natural rolling path, depending on shot angle. There may be a tiny boost of topspin that helps it along this path, but usually it isn't obvious and we don't see it occur. The inertia of the CB is just enough to keep it rolling in a natural direction.

If we hit the same shot with a medium-firm stroke, there will be noticeable topspin on the CB after it hits the OB. The CB will have more inertia (more rotational force) and will be forced along a more narrow path in relation to a normal rolling path. This of course depends on the angle of the shot -- on thinner cuts the CB retains most of its momentum, which overpowers the rotational torque/spin on the OB. On thicker shots the CB's rotational force overpowers the amount of momentum that doesn't get transferred to the OB. On a more full hit, it doesn't take much speed to force the CB along a more narrow departure path, because nearly all of the momentum was transferred to the OB on impact and the CB''s inertia is now the driving force that keeps it moving. If we hit the shot harder we get more spin, and it's more noticeable.

Anyway, I guess I'm just curious as to when a shot can be classified as a force follow. I mean, anytime the CB is forced off of it's natural departure path (due to it's rotational spin/force/inertia overpowering it's momentum), we have a forced shot -- the CB follows a forced path instead of a natural rolling path. But are we only to consider it a "force follow" if the topspin is so extreme that it causes the CB to dance against the rail a time or two?


POOLOLOGY
Brian Crist

Last edited by BC21; 11-28-2017 at 06:36 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#64)
FranCrimi
AzB Silver Member
FranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2010
   
11-29-2017, 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
So how much topspin is needed to classify a shot as a "force follow" shot? On a typical follow shot (at soft to medium speeds) the CB hits the OB and then follows its natural rolling path, depending on shot angle. There may be a tiny boost of topspin that helps it along this path, but usually it isn't obvious and we don't see it occur. The inertia of the CB is just enough to keep it rolling in a natural direction.

If we hit the same shot with a medium-firm stroke, there will be noticeable topspin on the CB after it hits the OB. The CB will have more inertia (more rotational force) and will be forced along a more narrow path in relation to a normal rolling path. This of course depends on the angle of the shot -- on thinner cuts the CB retains most of its momentum, which overpowers the rotational torque/spin on the OB. On thicker shots the CB's rotational force overpowers the amount of momentum that doesn't get transferred to the OB. On a more full hit, it doesn't take much speed to force the CB along a more narrow departure path, because nearly all of the momentum was transferred to the OB on impact and the CB''s inertia is now the driving force that keeps it moving. If we hit the shot harder we get more spin, and it's more noticeable.

Anyway, I guess I'm just curious as to when a shot can be classified as a force follow. I mean, anytime the CB is forced off of it's natural departure path (due to it's rotational spin/force/inertia overpowering it's momentum), we have a forced shot -- the CB follows a forced path instead of a natural rolling path. But are we only to consider it a "force follow" if the topspin is so extreme that it causes the CB to dance against the rail a time or two?
Although you're right in that your shot had both force and follow, I think what was originally meant by the term was that both the force and the follow are of an extreme nature to where you can visibly see the effects of both when each aspect kicks-in.


Been Verified. Supporter of responsible teaching. Background checks for instructors, especially those who teach kids.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#65)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,462
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
11-29-2017, 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Although you're right in that your shot had both force and follow, I think what was originally meant by the term was that both the force and the follow are of an extreme nature to where you can visibly see the effects of both when each aspect kicks-in.
Yeah, I suppose that's really the only good way to classify follow shots. I mean, the obvious distinction between extreme follow and normal follow is the fact that extreme CB spin/action is quite obvious and easy to see. A normal follow shot, though a certain amount of force is involved, doesn't have that obvious action.

Thanks for the good response. It helped me think of the shot as more of a visual classification rather than physics.


POOLOLOGY
Brian Crist
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#66)
skipbales
AzB Silver Member

skipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 246
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Globe AZ
   
11-29-2017, 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Although you're right in that your shot had both force and follow, I think what was originally meant by the term was that both the force and the follow are of an extreme nature to where you can visibly see the effects of both when each aspect kicks-in.
That is why I have trouble distinguishing between a force follow shot at long distance from any other hard it follow shot. All the effects even out and you end up with a fast rolling cue ball no matter how you started it, Even if you started a hard hit shot with back spin, if it had time to roll long enough it would eventually become a fast full rolling cue ball. It would take longer than 9 feet but the back spin eventually converts to drag then drag to roll then to full roll.

That was why it seemed to me Force Follow was an effort to get to full roll immediately and was mostly valuable for shorter hard hit shots.

I was practicing Tor Lowry's ball pocketing drill on a long pattern. In it he has you hit 10 points on the cue ball. At distance there is no difference in the rebound with what he calls "High Action" (extreme high) versus one tip above center. I asked him why I should practice a shot I would never use since the extra high cuing increased risk of mis hits and unintended spin without gaining any additional forward roll. His reply was that he wanted me to learn to hit exactly where I was aiming on the cue ball, not that he expected a different rebound result.

On shorter shots the hard hit extreme high rebound varied substantially from the partial roll developed with a regular above center shot. Once the distance was great enough all the forces evened out and what was left was high speed full forward roll and the action was the same. That was why I questioned the concept of a Force Follow shot at distance. I think it is exactly the same as any full rolling cue ball at distance.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#67)
FranCrimi
AzB Silver Member
FranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2010
   
11-30-2017, 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
That is why I have trouble distinguishing between a force follow shot at long distance from any other hard it follow shot. All the effects even out and you end up with a fast rolling cue ball no matter how you started it, Even if you started a hard hit shot with back spin, if it had time to roll long enough it would eventually become a fast full rolling cue ball. It would take longer than 9 feet but the back spin eventually converts to drag then drag to roll then to full roll.

That was why it seemed to me Force Follow was an effort to get to full roll immediately and was mostly valuable for shorter hard hit shots.

I was practicing Tor Lowry's ball pocketing drill on a long pattern. In it he has you hit 10 points on the cue ball. At distance there is no difference in the rebound with what he calls "High Action" (extreme high) versus one tip above center. I asked him why I should practice a shot I would never use since the extra high cuing increased risk of mis hits and unintended spin without gaining any additional forward roll. His reply was that he wanted me to learn to hit exactly where I was aiming on the cue ball, not that he expected a different rebound result.

On shorter shots the hard hit extreme high rebound varied substantially from the partial roll developed with a regular above center shot. Once the distance was great enough all the forces evened out and what was left was high speed full forward roll and the action was the same. That was why I questioned the concept of a Force Follow shot at distance. I think it is exactly the same as any full rolling cue ball at distance.
I tend to agree with you that it's rare to feel the need to shoot a force follow shot at a distance. I think there may be a couple of instances that might work but are risky, such as a side of the pack long break shot in 14.1, where you want the force to hit the pack hard and the extreme top spin to drive the cue ball through the pack and separate the balls. But there's a pretty high risk of missing the shot. I've shot that shot before and you have to really commit to it and then accept what happens. If you waver the slightest amount, you'll miss. At that speed, there's practically no margin for error.


Been Verified. Supporter of responsible teaching. Background checks for instructors, especially those who teach kids.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#68)
3kushn
AzB Silver Member
3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute3kushn has a reputation beyond repute
 
3kushn's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,566
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Feb 2006
   
12-06-2017, 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
Well, now you have me wondering if you are just trying to be contrary. Earlier, and what I responded to, you were stating that the cb would climb the ob and go off the table. Now, you are saying it will only, maybe, climb a thousandth of an inch. Which you have no evidence of.

As far as the contact point increasing substantially, take a piece of carbon paper and lean it in front of the ob. Shoot it soft, then hard. Observe the results.
How easy is it to stroke a CB with force follow, and the CB never leaves the cloth prior to OB contact?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#69)
Neil
AzB Silver Member
Neil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 17,290
vCash: 2200
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2007
   
12-06-2017, 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
How easy is it to stroke a CB with force follow, and the CB never leaves the cloth prior to OB contact?
Not sure that it can be done.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#70)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 12,979
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
12-06-2017, 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
How easy is it to stroke a CB with force follow, and the CB never leaves the cloth prior to OB contact?
It is possible but the cue stick has to be angled slightly upward which is hard to do.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#71)
denwhit
AzB Silver Member
denwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond repute
 
denwhit's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: USA
   
12-11-2017, 01:40 PM

In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.
Attached Images
 


* Mark Gregory walnut rails
*RKC set up w/ 42 pt. leveling system
*ProjectorProBilliards MicroComputer
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#72)
SmoothStroke
AzB Silver Member
SmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond reputeSmoothStroke has a reputation beyond repute
 
SmoothStroke's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 929
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jul 2005
   
12-11-2017, 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.
This is pool 101-1/2, which comes after pool 101.
With 1/2 a brain and a little cue ball knowledge these are routine.

If you have any 3 cushion knowledge these are a gimme.
You could play these with 1 foot on the floor shooting behind your back while playing tiddley winks and get all 3 in the same pocket.

Hundreds of shots? I would love to see just 50.
Its not about the shot, its the stroke, speed, spin, and imagination.
All you need is stroke technique,it's really not that difficult, maybe for a beginner.

Sincerely: SS


I almost made that shot.
You don't know what you don't know until you know it.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#73)
skipbales
AzB Silver Member

skipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond reputeskipbales has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 246
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Globe AZ
   
12-11-2017, 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothStroke View Post
This is pool 101-1/2, which comes after pool 101.
With 1/2 a brain and a little cue ball knowledge these are routine.

If you have any 3 cushion knowledge these are a gimme.
You could play these with 1 foot on the floor shooting behind your back while playing tiddley winks and get all 3 in the same pocket.

Hundreds of shots? I would love to see just 50.
Its not about the shot, its the stroke, speed, spin, and imagination.
All you need is stroke technique,it's really not that difficult, maybe for a beginner.

Sincerely: SS
Kind of hard on the guy aren't you? It is old information to you but new to him. There are a lot of different skill levels here and he is trying to share something he just learned. I hate to discourage anyone from posting. I wish there was more interaction at all levels.

I enjoyed all the interaction on this subject, including his and yours.
  
Reply With Quote
Well done.
Old
  (#74)
Low500
AzB Silver Member
Low500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 413
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2017
   
Thumbs up Well done. - 12-11-2017, 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.
Even as all wet as I think you and your instructor are about "despising aiming systems", I gotta' admit this is some pretty strong hitting.
If your instructor is teaching you this kind of playing, it looks to me like you're spending your time and money wisely.
If it had of been me, I was thinking powerful 'center ball stun' up the table straight to the opposite short rail and straight back down again.
What you did, never even occurred to me. A little too risky for me...I see too many chances to scratch with that sailing cue ball, resulting in losing my money. I guess that shows where my half-ass game is at.
Nevertheless, you sure hit those good. I will be glad to compliment you on that.
(I thought they threw you out of here on a 'ban'...I must've been wrong. If they did...glad to see you back).
Stay happy.

P.Lowenstein
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#75)
denwhit
AzB Silver Member
denwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond reputedenwhit has a reputation beyond repute
 
denwhit's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: USA
   
12-11-2017, 06:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothStroke View Post
This is pool 101-1/2, which comes after pool 101.
With 1/2 a brain and a little cue ball knowledge these are routine.

If you have any 3 cushion knowledge these are a gimme.
You could play these with 1 foot on the floor shooting behind your back while playing tiddley winks and get all 3 in the same pocket.

Hundreds of shots? I would love to see just 50.
Its not about the shot, its the stroke, speed, spin, and imagination.
All you need is stroke technique,it's really not that difficult, maybe for a beginner.

Sincerely: SS
Could be a beginning shot for you but I'll bet 95% of pool players do not know of the second shot nor can they produce it without working on it.


* Mark Gregory walnut rails
*RKC set up w/ 42 pt. leveling system
*ProjectorProBilliards MicroComputer
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 5 of 8 « First 345 67 Last »

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.