Honest effort with a LD cue

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I have played with many cues, some are a lot harder to move the cueball with, and I also posted a diagram of shots me and a friend were testing with various shafts and tips. There are clear differences that are not just variances due to the shooter.
I know it can seem that way - that's why you have to do controlled tests to be sure. The simplest test is to shoot a bunch of shots from the spot straight into the side rail (at a 90-degree angle, straight at the second diamond) with maximum side spin and compare the angle changes each produces.

The "control" is also easy - use a striped ball as your "cue ball" with the stripe vertical and facing you, and hit it right at the outer edge of the stripe (this is about the miscue limit). Then (here's the important part) check your chalk mark to be sure you're hitting each shot with exactly the same amount of side spin. Only count the shots where the chalk mark is on target.

P.S. If your comparing cues with large squirt differences the higher squirt cue might not be able to hit as close to the edge of the stripe without miscueing - in that case shoot all the shots with the chalk mark a little closer to centerball to compare apples and apples.

pj
chgo

View attachment 52665
 

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KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
My definition of "effective tip offset" is illustrated in the pic below - the amount of offset as viewed through the CB's center along the actual shot line.

The direction of force ("force vector") must be the same in order to drive the CB to the same target, so it's as if each different cue hits the CB at the same spot from straight on - i.e., with no squirt.

One caveat: the "effective miscue limit" is viewed from the direction the cue is traveling, which differs (slightly, exaggerated below for clarity) for each cue - so a lower squirt cue can produce a little more spin, but only at the maximum limit.

pj
chgo

View attachment 51609

I like this "picture". But curious to what most folks use when using English. Do most use pivot A, B or C ?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like this "picture". But curious to what most folks use when using English. Do most use pivot A, B or C ?
With my Schmelke sneaky i use the center one, low squirt. I use BHE and have no problems controlling squirt. Well, usually anyway. ;)
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I like this "picture". But curious to what most folks use when using English. Do most use pivot A, B or C ?
The pictured pivot points are shorter than actual (so the different angles show clearly) - for instance, a low-squirt pivot point is typically longer than 12 inches. "C" (no squirt) is, of course, impossible.

pj
chgo
 
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jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My definition of tip offset as it applies to spin is illustrated in the pic below - the amount of offset as viewed through the CB's center along the actual shot line.

The direction of force ("force vector") must be the same in order to drive the CB to the same target, so it's as if each different cue hits the CB at the same spot from straight on - i.e., with no squirt.

One caveat: the "effective miscue limit" is viewed from the direction the cue is traveling, which differs (slightly, exaggerated below for clarity) for each cue - so a lower squirt cue can produce a little more spin, but only at the maximum limit.

pj
chgo

View attachment 51609
Nice picture.

In each case the effective tip offset is the same. But the actual tip offset is lower for the low squirt cue. Put another way, for the same actual tip offset the lower squirt cue will provide more spin. I believe the actual tip offset is what many intuitively refer to when they say that a lower squirt cue spins the ball more. And I really have no problem with that.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know it can seem that way - that's why you have to do controlled tests to be sure. The simplest test is to shoot a bunch of shots from the spot straight into the side rail (at a 90-degree angle, straight at the second diamond) with maximum side spin and compare the angle changes each produces.

The "control" is also easy - use a striped ball as your "cue ball" with the stripe vertical and facing you, and hit it right at the outer edge of the stripe (this is about the miscue limit). Then (here's the important part) check your chalk mark to be sure you're hitting each shot with exactly the same amount of side spin. Only count the shots where the chalk mark is on target.

P.S. If your comparing cues with large squirt differences the higher squirt cue might not be able to hit as close to the edge of the stripe without miscueing - in that case shoot all the shots with the chalk mark a little closer to centerball to compare apples and apples.

pj
chgo

View attachment 52665

That is exactly what I did, setup the same shot, shot it with 6 different shaft/tip combinations and two different players, noted where the cueball ended up. Go up a few posts and you will see the diagram with the shot we were shooting and our results.

Not just myself but also the other owner of the Arthur cue noted that you could not move the cueball as well with that cue as you can with others. It was over days of play, so it's not just that I got all weak one day and could not play, it was a good comparison of equipment.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...for the same actual tip offset the lower squirt cue will provide more spin.
To avoid terminology issues, let me try it this way:

It seems to me that...

If the tip contacts the CB in the same place, and the CB goes in the same direction (i.e., the same force vector is applied to the CB at the same spot), then it has the same amount of spin whatever the amount of squirt.

However, the greater the cue's angle from the CB's direction of travel (the more squirt it produces), the closer to "direction-of-travel center" its miscue limit is. That means it can't produce the same amount of maximum spin as a lower-squirt cue, but there's no difference at any contact point they can both reach.

pj
chgo
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's been said a hundred times or more here (more than once in this thread alone), but I guess it needs to be said again: no cue spins the CB more or less than any other.

pj <- broken record
chgo

I meant the "ease" in which the shaft applies spin. You don't have to be rude.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
That is exactly what I did, setup the same shot, shot it with 6 different shaft/tip combinations and two different players, noted where the cueball ended up. Go up a few posts and you will see the diagram with the shot we were shooting and our results.

Not just myself but also the other owner of the Arthur cue noted that you could not move the cueball as well with that cue as you can with others. It was over days of play, so it's not just that I got all weak one day and could not play, it was a good comparison of equipment.
I'm mystified, because I've tried that test on many cues over the years and have never found a significant difference if I was really careful about the variables (tip condition, for instance).

Thanks for the info.

pj
chgo
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just got a new stick today with a 12.4 Revo. It’s my first time hitting an LD shaft. I was only on a bar table so the shorter shots made me not notice the effects of squirt much at all. I only goofed with it for 10-20 min or so hitting hits with lots of spin and not really noticing any difference in shot making. I did a few LD tests, 3 tips right aimed full table at the center diamond looking to see how far from the diamond contact is made. I try to isolate swerve with a consistent firmness. My old stick squirted 1/8 to 1/4 diamond. My new stick was between 0 to 1/8 diamond. So that was clinically noticeable but for me it didn’t appear to affect my potting. But 10-20 minutes is quite the small sample.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm mystified, because I've tried that test on many cues over the years and have never found a significant difference if I was really careful about the variables (tip condition, for instance).

Thanks for the info.

pj
chgo

I'll re-do the test with some different shafts and cues I have now with a few more people and see what we get. Maybe video it.
 

easymoney1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This has been a good read, some of it makes me want to take a nap, some.of it really makes sense. I went to the pool room last night and played for about 3 hours. During that time I started to feel very comfortable with this new equipment and played to a level that I havnt in a good while. I felt very much in control of the cue ball and my shot making was very strong as it relates to me. I ran many racks and those were all very controlled and precise.

I do agree with a couple comments about being more focused on what I should be doing therefore getting a better result. I will be continuing to use the predator as my player, whether it is a better arrow or not. ;)

Thank you for all the discussion and input. Some of you have a much deeper understand of what is actually happening than I do, but I must say, I can play a little with this cue. :)
 

philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep, and hitting a million balls the wrong way it does not help much, does it. yeah, go figure, the "old guy" hates any new technology. Color me shocked. Now, go back and chase those kids off your lawn, Phlly ;) lol

The wrong way? Watch some vids of Keith McCready or Ralph Greenleaf and tell me about hittng the wrong way. lol.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
The wrong way? Watch some vids of Keith McCready or Ralph Greenleaf and tell me about hittng the wrong way. lol.

I can tell you about the wrong way all day long. Keith McCready stroke is completely wrong, but he made it work. If it was so good, how come nobody else copied it?

When teaching folks billiards or any sports, they will go much further with proper fundamentals. Thus, why folks that learn to hit in baseball are not told to keep their hands apart, or stand on one leg, or close their left eye, etc.

So, yep, there are wrong ways. There are plenty of right ways as well, as not everyone is built the same or moves the same way, but the bottom line, it's easier to start from a solid platform before moving onto the old school "hit a million balls"......

I'd rather have a guy with perfect, repeatable stroke, so he doesn't have to hit a million balls to figure it out ;)
 
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