Force-Follow Stroking Advice, If Possible..

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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My pool teacher can set the balls up with the OB into the corner pocket and 5, five OB balls at the second diamond against the long rail, sticking out toward the middle of the table, side by side, starting up against the rail. He is hitting the in-the-jaws OB and force following the CB curving around the five balls and into the rail which would easily pocket the ball at the other end next to the pocket. I can not do that! I can swing it around 2 sticking straight out balls and maybe 3 if on a good stoke. How does someone get five balls out? He says he could do 6 and 7 when he was in his prime! Try it yourselves and let me know.
Here is my question; this is not like Dustin Johnson hitting his drive 340 yards down the fairway. He is 35 years old (or something), 6'5", extremely in great shape, hips that slant out 30-40 degrees at impact, etc. etc. I understand why I can not do that. BUT, what is it in the force follow stroke that allows someone to stroke it like that? AND, can I learn it?
I mean the pool stroke is just a stick that strokes through the CB.... not too much to learn there? Right? That doesn't take muscles. Is this, the power of the stroke that mortals just can not get?
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
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I's all in the speed of the stroke with both of you hitting the same spot on the cb as a given. His arm length helps, but the amount of fast twitch muscle fiber makes a big difference.
 

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
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Tip speed. You can learn to improve your cue 'power' or tip speed. Not by working out but by working on your technique for that particular shot. It comes down to timing and having all your shoulder, arm, elbow, wrist and finger mechanics in perfect harmony.

Without seeing at least any video footage of you trying this shot its very difficult to offer advice to help you get closer to your goal.

I played snooker with an absolute giant of a man once. He must have been at least 6'6 with 18 inch arms. He could play a little bit but when faced with a power draw or force follow shot he would always try to muscle the cue ball around the table. Then me, half his size with my weedy arms could draw the ball a full 12 foot straight back with a distance of 10 feet between object ball and cue ball. He never could quite grasp how I did it. He would simply just try to hit the shot even harder next time.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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I's all in the speed of the stroke with both of you hitting the same spot on the cb as a given. His arm length helps, but the amount of fast twitch muscle fiber makes a big difference.

So probably nothing I can learn? It's all in the fast twitch muscles.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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So probably nothing I can learn? It's all in the fast twitch muscles.

Baloney. Fast twitch muscle fibers are not necessary to execute force follow shots. It's just a matter of figuring out the technique and getting the timing right. Depending on the required speed, some players like to add a little wrist-flick into the stroke just before impact to add a bit of speed. Other players don't feel the need for it. They can execute with just arm swing.

Fast twitch muscle fibers may help you out if you need to sprint around the table if you're playing speed pool.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
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Baloney. Fast twitch muscle fibers are not necessary to execute force follow shots. It's just a matter of figuring out the technique and getting the timing right. Depending on the required speed, some players like to add a little wrist-flick into the stroke just before impact to add a bit of speed. Other players don't feel the need for it. They can execute with just arm swing.

Fast twitch muscle fibers may help you out if you need to sprint around the table if you're playing speed pool.

He's not talking about normal force follow here. And if you don't think fast twitch muscle fiber has anything to do arm speed, you don't know much about boxing. At denwhits age, he isn't likely to be able to duplicate that shot.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Baloney. Fast twitch muscle fibers are not necessary to execute force follow shots. It's just a matter of figuring out the technique and getting the timing right. Depending on the required speed, some players like to add a little wrist-flick into the stroke just before impact to add a bit of speed. Other players don't feel the need for it. They can execute with just arm swing.

Fast twitch muscle fibers may help you out if you need to sprint around the table if you're playing speed pool.

How about just letting the cue slide ?
Ala Efren ?

Efren kills the fast twitch muscle theory. https://youtu.be/nV7CKLcCJo0?t=2
 

Bob Jewett

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To answer your question, if you can hit the ball hard enough, you can make those fancy shots. If you control where you hit the cue ball well, your percentage will be higher.

I remember playing with a friend of mine in high school. We were both about APA 3s but we knew about follow and draw and such. My friend had a great deal of enthusiasm and not much accuracy. On one shot he was trying to follow down to the foot rail and back for position and he hit the ball really hard. He got the nicest table-length draw you could ever hope to see. Sometime gross elbow-lift can be a good thing, but not often.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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He's not talking about normal force follow here. And if you don't think fast twitch muscle fiber has anything to do arm speed, you don't know much about boxing. At denwhits age, he isn't likely to be able to duplicate that shot.

You're comparing a boxing punch to a billiard stroke needed to execute a force follow shot? Seriously?

Oh come on already. Some people aren't comfortable moving their arms faster to execute that type of shot. It's not that they can't do it, it's just that they feel like they lose control when they do it and sub-consciously hold back. It's just a matter of being able to venture out of their comfort zones and let go a little to try something new. And let's not forget tip placement on the cb. Speed doesn't do anything for you if you don't hit the ball at the correct spot for the shot.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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How about just letting the cue slide ?
Ala Efren ?

Efren kills the fast twitch muscle theory. https://youtu.be/nV7CKLcCJo0?t=2

Yeah, Efren's strong suit is his capability of hitting the cb exactly where he wants to, so he gets the results he expects from the shot.

Amateur players, if they're brave enough, can shoot at the same speed as Efren did in that shot, but often don't have a high enough aptitude of striking accuracy.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Yeah, Efren's strong suit is his capability of hitting the cb exactly where he wants to, so he gets the results he expects from the shot.

Amateur players, if they're brave enough, can shoot at the same speed as Efren did in that shot, but often don't have a high enough aptitude of striking accuracy.

No doubt about that statement.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
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Yeah, Efren's strong suit is his capability of hitting the cb exactly where he wants to, so he gets the results he expects from the shot.

Amateur players, if they're brave enough, can shoot at the same speed as Efren did in that shot, but often don't have a high enough aptitude of striking accuracy.

How about a little video of you making each shot?
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Yeah, Efren's strong suit is his capability of hitting the cb exactly where he wants to, so he gets the results he expects from the shot.

Amateur players, if they're brave enough, can shoot at the same speed as Efren did in that shot, but often don't have a high enough aptitude of striking accuracy.

Yup.
Efren was using his extra long heavy cue then.

Amateurs and normal souls cannot execute that shot b/c us normal souls will be trying all our might to muscle that shot.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
He's not talking about normal force follow here. And if you don't think fast twitch muscle fiber has anything to do arm speed, you don't know much about boxing. At denwhits age, he isn't likely to be able to duplicate that shot.

Are you some boxing expert too Neil ?
How ?

I was a boxing gym rat in my college days.
I frequented a boxing gym then. Trained with the pros even.
Two of my gym mates actually earned world title shots .

Are you equating punching power with fast twitch muscle gift or something ?

And you actually expect Fran to know boxing all that well ?
Like Dr Joyce Brothers winning the 64,000 Question under the tutelage of Nat Fleischer ?
Speaking of punching power, among those in the list of the hardest hitters by Nat Fleischer was the Mighty Atom, Jimmy Wilde. All 110 lbs of him . +- a pound or two. I wonder if he was as gifted in the fast twitch muscle area as Max Baer.


Does Efren have more fast twitch muscles than the usual soul ?
He was some buck 30 lbs in his prime .
Back in the mid 90's to 2000 he was using that heavy long Jessie cue.
We used to make fun of it when we played with it at his old road manager's place in Riverside . I was there the day Mark Wilson called him about the Color of Money match in HK. I asked Efren why he did not like linen wrap. He showed me his "grip" . It's not even a grip. It's a loose hold and he lets the cue go when needed. He does not muscle the ball.

Like most power stroke shots, force follow is just another skill, timing and hand to eye coordination more than muscle.
I gotta agree with Fran.
 
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Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Doesn't punching speed and power have a lot to do with a rotation of the torso and hips into the punch? Legend has it Mike Massey used to train 8 hours a day on a speed bag and that he had so much fast twitch fibres in his arm that had he played darts, he would have had to stand 2 states away from the board.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you some boxing expert too Neil ?
How ?

I was a boxing gym rat in my college days.
I frequented a boxing gym then. Trained with the pros even.
Two of my gym mates actually earned world title shots .

Are you equating punching power with fast twitch muscle gift or something ?

And you actually expect Fran to know boxing all that well ?
Like Dr Joyce Brothers winning the 64,000 Question under the tutelage of Nat Fleischer ?
Speaking of punching power, among those in the list of the hardest hitters by Nat Fleischer was the Mighty Atom, Jimmy Wilde. All 110 lbs of him . +- a pound or two. I wonder if he had as gifted in the fast twitch muscle area as Max Baer.


Does Efren have more fast twitch muscles than the usual soul ?
He was some buck 30 lbs in his prime .
Back in the mid 90's to 2000 he was using that heavy long Jessie cue.
We used to make fun of it when we played with it at his old road manager's place in Riverside . I was there the day Mark Wilson called him about the Color of Money match in HK. I asked Efren why he did not like linen wrap. He showed me his "grip" . It's not even a grip. It's a loose hold and he lets the cue go when needed. He does not muscle the ball.

Like most power stroke shots, force follow is just another skill, timing and hand to eye coordination more than muscle.
I gotta agree with Fran.

BINGO Joey! A lot of people don't realize that one of Efren's most powerful weapons in his prime was literally releasing the cue just before impact and then catching it after impact on certain shots --- particularly certain top spin shots. The hit was as pure as you can get because the influence of human contact at impact was removed.
 
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