Importance of having cue/forearm,upper arm in vertical alignment through stroke

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Looking for thought / opinions on how important this is, to play pool at a high level of consistency? Obviously someone in perfect vertical alignment such as Allison Fisher, is the textbook example of a player with perfect wrist/forearm/elbow/shoulder vertical alignment, as are most snooker players in general.

Certainly many pro pool players vary considerably both ways - many Fillipino players have their forearms and elbow "inside the line" (closer to their torso), Keith McCready being the extreme example of this, and Willie Mosconi to a lesser degree, whereas some other very good players have just the opposite - elbows extending far "outside the line".

I'm particularly interested in how important some of the experienced instructor forum members here feel this alignment aspect is, in terms of teaching new players, or in terms of making a change with a player whose been playing for a while who has an arm/elbow that is well "inside or outside" the vertical line?

Related to this, how important is it whether the wrist that grips the back of the cue is held in a neutral position which is generally the case for players with perfect vertical alignment? Players aligning their elbows "inside" the line generally have a concave wrist position, whereas players aligning their elbows "outside" the line generally have a convex wrist position?

Obviously, it's been proven that pro players can perfect all kind of various styles of alignment and still play at a very high level, if they are able to repeat their straight back and straight through strokes consistently under pressure.

However, I am of the school that in an ideal world, if you can get a player to make the change to get them in the proper vertical alignment early in their pool playing career, everything else being equal, it will give them a better chance at becoming a better, more consistent player than would otherwise be the case if they don't make the alignment change.
 

Capt D

Registered
I'm certainly no instructor but I believe that if one can achieve consistency of stroke whether it is inside, outside, convex, or concave and is comfortable for the individual player it is the right stroke for them. Now if consistency is a problem then moving toward to a neutral alignment would be the right advise for that player.
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with everything you said.
This is the one thing that I work on the most.
The guys who have their elbow "inside" the cue, more sidearm, are guys that began playing ALOT when they were very young. I have seen very few players that get very good with their elbow "outside" the cue very far - I think this is one of the most common and correctable faults there is.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As with your shoulder the tip of your elbow should be in line with the shot line. The grip of the cue should allow for the lower part of the arm to close naturally. When done properly there will be absolutely no tension in the forearm. Your just closing your arm and pushing the cue forward straight out in front of you.

John
 
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336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
Have a friend video you from behind and from in front when shooting shots in the corner pocket using follow, stop and draw on your phone. Hook it up to a monitor and play it. If you want to get fancy get a lazer level and set it up on your elbow. I made my shots for the greatest part but was missing some I couldnt explain until I saw what I was doing. With the straight in shot at long distance its pretty darn important to have the mechanics right and when you get them right you'll know it.I have some elbow drop that left unattended can get worse at times. This stopped the most of it. It just took me awhile to get used to how not dropping your elbow felt.

Looking for thought / opinions on how important this is, to play pool at a high level of consistency? Obviously someone in perfect vertical alignment such as Allison Fisher, is the textbook example of a player with perfect wrist/forearm/elbow/shoulder vertical alignment, as are most snooker players in general.

Certainly many pro pool players vary considerably both ways - many Fillipino players have their forearms and elbow "inside the line" (closer to their torso), Keith McCready being the extreme example of this, and Willie Mosconi to a lesser degree, whereas some other very good players have just the opposite - elbows extending far "outside the line".

I'm particularly interested in how important some of the experienced instructor forum members here feel this alignment aspect is, in terms of teaching new players, or in terms of making a change with a player whose been playing for a while who has an arm/elbow that is well "inside or outside" the vertical line?

Related to this, how important is it whether the wrist that grips the back of the cue is held in a neutral position which is generally the case for players with perfect vertical alignment? Players aligning their elbows "inside" the line generally have a concave wrist position, whereas players aligning their elbows "outside" the line generally have a convex wrist position?

Obviously, it's been proven that pro players can perfect all kind of various styles of alignment and still play at a very high level, if they are able to repeat their straight back and straight through strokes consistently under pressure.

However, I am of the school that in an ideal world, if you can get a player to make the change to get them in the proper vertical alignment early in their pool playing career, everything else being equal, it will give them a better chance at becoming a better, more consistent player than would otherwise be the case if they don't make the alignment change.
 

owll

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
im cross eye dominant. i have my wrist close to my body and my elbow over it, to accomplish this, my shoulder has to be outside the shot line, or i would have to turn my body an awful lot to get shoulder, elbow, and wrist all on the same plane.

think about it, im left eye dominant and right handed....think about how much my body would have to be turned to get right shoulder behind left eye (my shoulders would probably end up almost parallel to shot line to accomplish this).

(if was right eye dominant, and right handed, i would definitely try to get everything on the same plane.....instead i just have settle for elbow and wrist on the shot line)

this is my approach (which is alot more spotty than i would prefer), good luck on whatever approach you are using ;)
 

O'SulliReyes

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool, much like golf, is a sport where you should not have a hundred thoughts in your mind when down on the shot. Having a good set-up would allow you to concentrate better because you would not be bogged down by the thought of your technique breaking down, especially when the going gets tough. Hence, all else being equal, a player with good set-up will tend to play better under pressure.

Case in point: Stephen Hendry. He may not be as naturally-gifted as Ronnie O'Sullivan, but he was able to compile 775 centuries and his record of 7 World titles remains unbeaten. It all boils down to his greatest strength: temperament. I believe his temperament comes from having an excellent set-up, allowing him to deliver the cue in an efficient manner.

untitled-e1457379626833_large.png
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, that just looks ridiculous.

More than one way to skin a cat. Hitting a pool ball is a lot like a jump shot in basketball. Look at the NBA...all kindsa deviation there and the sample size is kinda massive, so they are the best...so one can become the best with deviation from 'perfect'.

Pool, much like golf, is a sport where you should not have a hundred thoughts in your mind when down on the shot. Having a good set-up would allow you to concentrate better because you would not be bogged down by the thought of your technique breaking down, especially when the going gets tough. Hence, all else being equal, a player with good set-up will tend to play better under pressure.

Case in point: Stephen Hendry. He may not be as naturally-gifted as Ronnie O'Sullivan, but he was able to compile 775 centuries and his record of 7 World titles remains unbeaten. It all boils down to his greatest strength: temperament. I believe his temperament comes from having an excellent set-up, allowing him to deliver the cue in an efficient manner.

untitled-e1457379626833_large.png
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
Pool, much like golf, is a sport where you should not have a hundred thoughts in your mind when down on the shot. Having a good set-up would allow you to concentrate better because you would not be bogged down by the thought of your technique breaking down, especially when the going gets tough. Hence, all else being equal, a player with good set-up will tend to play better under pressure.

Case in point: Stephen Hendry. He may not be as naturally-gifted as Ronnie O'Sullivan, but he was able to compile 775 centuries and his record of 7 World titles remains unbeaten. It all boils down to his greatest strength: temperament. I believe his temperament comes from having an excellent set-up, allowing him to deliver the cue in an efficient manner.
.

Check out the elbow position of Joe Swail.. 5:40 in this video.... http://youtu.be/H5QrJGUocAo
Check out all the great videos put on YouTube by Barry Stark

.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are certain positions in all sports that are more favorable to our anatomy than other positions. The farther away we venture from our natural anatomy, the more strain it puts on our bodies and we will tire quicker. There is also the probability of chronic injuries after many years of strain.

This is the main reason why I favor a vertical, or close to vertical, arm in pool. It works with our anatomy.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
There are certain positions in all sports that are more favorable to our anatomy than other positions. The farther away we venture from our natural anatomy, the more strain it puts on our bodies and we will tire quicker. There is also the probability of chronic injuries after many years of strain.

This is the main reason why I favor a vertical, or close to vertical, arm in pool. It works with our anatomy.

Nice explanation!
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
im cross eye dominant. i have my wrist close to my body and my elbow over it, to accomplish this, my shoulder has to be outside the shot line, or i would have to turn my body an awful lot to get shoulder, elbow, and wrist all on the same plane.

think about it, im left eye dominant and right handed....think about how much my body would have to be turned to get right shoulder behind left eye (my shoulders would probably end up almost parallel to shot line to accomplish this).

(if was right eye dominant, and right handed, i would definitely try to get everything on the same plane.....instead i just have settle for elbow and wrist on the shot line)

this is my approach (which is alot more spotty than i would prefer), good luck on whatever approach you are using ;)

The stance adjustment isn't as big as you may think. You should seriously consider adjusting your stance rather than your arm.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Chris...I agree with you. The "pinned" elbow SPF stroke has all the necessary elements to create an accurate, repeatable, and dependable delivery for the cuestick. Allison or Karen Corr are great examples of this type of stroke. That said, I believe eliminating utilization of the the shoulder is much more important, so that you are swinging the cue, with no engagement of the shoulder at all. The swing is completed when the grip hand comes to rest on the pec muscle, or the biceps and forearm meet, to finish the stroke. The tip will finish in the same place on every shot, as well. I have worked with beginner players and expert players to train them in this technique. The majority that make these changes see radical improvement, that can become permanent. In the end, it becomes a choice. Both pendulum and piston strokes work. One is much simpler and has less variables to control, therefore less potential for small errors, and more easily trained with perfect timing. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Looking for thought / opinions on how important this is, to play pool at a high level of consistency? Obviously someone in perfect vertical alignment such as Allison Fisher, is the textbook example of a player with perfect wrist/forearm/elbow/shoulder vertical alignment, as are most snooker players in general.

Certainly many pro pool players vary considerably both ways - many Fillipino players have their forearms and elbow "inside the line" (closer to their torso), Keith McCready being the extreme example of this, and Willie Mosconi to a lesser degree, whereas some other very good players have just the opposite - elbows extending far "outside the line".

I'm particularly interested in how important some of the experienced instructor forum members here feel this alignment aspect is, in terms of teaching new players, or in terms of making a change with a player whose been playing for a while who has an arm/elbow that is well "inside or outside" the vertical line?

Related to this, how important is it whether the wrist that grips the back of the cue is held in a neutral position which is generally the case for players with perfect vertical alignment? Players aligning their elbows "inside" the line generally have a concave wrist position, whereas players aligning their elbows "outside" the line generally have a convex wrist position?

Obviously, it's been proven that pro players can perfect all kind of various styles of alignment and still play at a very high level, if they are able to repeat their straight back and straight through strokes consistently under pressure.

However, I am of the school that in an ideal world, if you can get a player to make the change to get them in the proper vertical alignment early in their pool playing career, everything else being equal, it will give them a better chance at becoming a better, more consistent player than would otherwise be the case if they don't make the alignment change.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, that just looks ridiculous.

More than one way to skin a cat. Hitting a pool ball is a lot like a jump shot in basketball. Look at the NBA...all kindsa deviation there and the sample size is kinda massive, so they are the best...so one can become the best with deviation from 'perfect'.

The best shooter in the NBA has perfect fundamentals.

Don't be so dismissive of their importance.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a firm believer in whatever works for you. Ortmann is a world champion 14.1 player and he plays sidearm.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The best shooter in the NBA has perfect fundamentals.

Don't be so dismissive of their importance.

Didn't mean to be dismissive at all. I should prob acknowledge the reason 'textbook' became itself was coz it gave best results to the most folks.
 
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