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Cardigan Kid
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09-13-2017, 04:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
That's not what you have been arguing...lol

If that's your argument, it's a valid one.

It's not the most reasonable, nor is it logically sound as a merit based argument. Don't try to argue it as such or you prove poolplaya9's point about you not being smart in your argument.

Say that's the history, that's the way it's been and leave it at that. That's your only argument. When you try to use a convoluted refutation like you have been, you sound foolish and petty.

Jaden
Lol to not reading the entire thread....

Here I'll highlight for you....

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
Ok, as I stated before, I agree with 99% of your views, especially in the equation to other sports. That is why I think alternating breaks 10 ball is the superior game to measure a world champion. It's the ultimate test.

However, we have to look at the history of 9 ball. In a world where long match 14.1 was what determined world champions, 9 ball emerged as a pick-up game of sorts. The old old rules actually had push out available on every shot, and not until Texas express rules came into the picture with tv did safety play even exist (but that's another thread).

So I always saw 9 ball like a pick-up game of basketball. You can take NBA players who play great in the NBA to a street court in Brooklyn, and they can play 1 on 1 pick-up games, race to 13, win by 2...And it's always the scorer keeps possession.

It's the ultimate test who is the stronger player 1 on 1, but many of those great street players can't even make a practice squad in the NBA because it's a different game yet they will beat the NBA player 1 on 1.

That's why I'm a fan of turning stone on that it's a chance to see 9 ball as it was meant to be, unpredictable and strong (Karen Corr came in 2nd last year at turning stone!) No rack templates, no 9 racked on different spots rules or 3 balls to a rail, alternating breaks...It's how it was meant to be before the tinkering.

It's a real treat to watch great pool players run out and display their talents. Sometimes in less than a half hour (the infamous Shaw over Mika in 23 minutes). You just can't find this kind of excitement in alternating breaks (which carries it's own form of excitement but in a different way).

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
What you do not realize is that pool is a stationary sport and one that should be compared to other stationary sports. A stationary sports is much different than reactionary sports in that you aren't reacting to something the other side does. So really pool should only be compared to other stationary sports, like golf.

In golf, you really don't play your opponent, you play the course and in the end you compare scores.

Pool in it's purest form 14.1 and then 9 ball, historically, you aren't playing your opponent, you are playing the table.

If a golfer makes a hole in one, or an eagle, serious golf fans will toss accolades and wait to see what he does on the next hole. Can he keep his marvelous play going? He has momentum leading into the final round. Etc etc all ways golf can be engaging to the viewer.

This is how I watch winner's break 9 ball and how I believe it is, at this moment in time, a very pure way to showcase pool, where the player plays the table, and if he plays well enough, he can keep hold of the table for as long as he can.

What Shaw and Shane were doing on Sunday was so good, only a handful of players in the world can reach that level in competition. They were playing what the table gave them off their stellar breaks, and the anticipation in seeing if they could go from rack to rack and take it to the finish was not just anticipating them defeating each other, but the possibility of them defeating the table in the game of pool.

We all know this game is infinitely impossible to master in every way shape and form. Even the best players in the world get defeated by the different variables this game will throw at them. But to stand under the lights, live stream, and audience eyes and win against the table if only for 4 or 5 racks in a row, is such an amazing display of talent to play, it should be honored and commended...not rule changed out of existence.

When I talked to Shaw after his loss to Shane, you could see it in his eyes, that this is the game he plays and when an opponent reaches that level as Shane did, there's nothing he could do. And he accepted it, because that is pool.

I have accepted the fact that the world as a whole is changing in regards to pool. Rules will be modified and games will be changed to make things more like other sports. However, like 14.1, winner's break 9 ball, is a pure form of pocket billiards and I will enjoy it the most of all.


Because every one of us who pick up a cue, from Shane and Shaw, to even you reading this...we are all Icarus, with wings made of feathers and wax on the break. There are moments when we can sore high and far but eventually, we will get close to the sun, the wax will melt and we will fall back to earth. Humans cannot defeat the table forever. But, boy is it sure fun to watch the very best give it a try.
  
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09-13-2017, 04:41 PM

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Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
Well, Jaden doesn't think we are being logical.

Thus I will counter that in every other sport, the team that scores relinquishes the scoring opportunity to the team which failed to defend.

Thus logically, playa and jaden should be arguing for loser-break format.

And how stupid would that be when one opponent ties the match at hill-hill and his reward is to see his opponent break and run? Huzzah's all around.
I'm not sure he read ALL of poolplaya's diatribes. He's a sharp guy, and I'm sure he would say they are foolish and pretty. Pool to football was kinda silly.
  
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09-14-2017, 03:05 AM

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Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
I would like to see the format elsewhere. In fact it is relatively common in street basketball.
In street basketball both sides are competing at the same time and have a lot of control over keeping their opponent from being able to score. Either side can also steal the ball at any time to get offensive possession so that they can score. Every time someone shoots at the basket it also gives the other side the opportunity to block the ball and take offensive possession, or to get a rebound and take offensive possession, and I presume there is usually a shot clock that also makes both these last two type opportunities occur literally every few seconds although they would still occur regularly enough on their own. Basketball games also consist of many, many, more scores than pool matches typically do, so the ďscorer retains offensive possessionĒ format has a whole lot more time to even out and have no effect--winner breaks doesnít make nearly the difference in races to 100 either. As you can clearly see, for lots of reasons street basketball is not even remotely similar to winner breaks pool in regards to how much opportunity to compete each side is guarantee to have.

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Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
There is a sport that the scoring team keeps the chance to score. It's a new-fangled fad called baseball, pal.
Wrong. Like pretty much every other sport in the world, its format guarantees each side about an equal opportunity to compete. As you said the other side still gets a chance to equal the score, plus both sides always have an active role in being able to put a stop to the other side's run so that they can get offensive possession again.

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Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
I argue that I've only heard of a few matches where both players didn't get to the table...and that doesn't include the lag.
If one of your main objectives is to identify the better player, which is always the case in tournaments, then a few times is a few too many when there is no need for it. Besides, you are only looking at the times where one side doesnít get to compete at all, and conveniently ignoring all the times where one side doesnít get to compete nearly as much which is almost as bad and is not just common but is actually the norm. To accurately determine the better player or team in anything (especially when matches are not extremely long) requires that both sides get about the same opportunity to compete which is why competitions in pretty much every other sport in the world have a format in place that through one means or another guarantees that.

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Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
You aren't nearly as intelligent as you think you are
To be able to accurately appreciate and identify someone's intelligence level requires at least an equivalent or better intelligence level. Let's just say your failure here is not unexpected.

I also notice that once again you chose not to answer all four questions since they would expose the lack of logic in your arguments. You still have a chance to try answer them though.
  
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09-14-2017, 03:34 AM

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Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
When you are playing other sports, there are other players playing defense AT THE SAME TIME and ON THE SAME playing surface as you are while you are playing your offense.
There are tons of glaringly obvious sports where this isnít the case at all unlike what you clearly try to imply. If you are still stumped just think about the summer or winter Olympics either one for tons of examples just right there. You donít seem to make even the most half hearted of attempts to think things out before posting do you? I mean I guess it could be more about ability than effort but I just donít think ability alone fully accounts for the obvious silliness of statements like this one, at least I hope not. You really should try the whole thinking before you post thing sometime.

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Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
When you play pool, you are the ONLY person at the table.....It is irrelevant if your opponent put you in whatever position the table layout may be.
It is not irrelevant at all because unlike what you are trying to claim, in pool an opponent is participating and able to have a very significant impact on your game and you are not in fact just playing the table. Clearly there are games or sports that are even more interactive between opponents, particularly when the interaction is concurrent, but that doesnít change that there is still an opponent in pool who interacts in your game and can have a very significant impact on it. There is absolutely an element of playing the table in pool as well, but it isn't the only element. You are intentionally choosing to ignore the interaction from your opponent and the impact it can have on your results (except in the rare case where you can manage to win the coin toss and run out the set).

If you arenít playing an opponent as well as playing the table then why will you fare differently competing against SVB than you do against an APA 2? If you were only playing the table then who your opponent was would never make a difference. And what on earth do you call a safety exchange if not playing an opponent? One of the secrets to understanding or "getting" something is that you first have to stop and actually give it some good honest deep thought. Yeah, I know, what a novel idea huh. With my previous explanations I think even your average eight year old would understand that pool has elements of playing an opponent along with playing the table so if you canít see it you are either unable, or unwilling, or both, so I donít know what else I could tell you that could help you in either case.

I also noticed that you once again chose not to answer my four questions since they would expose the lack of logic in your arguments. You still have a chance to try to answer them though.
  
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09-14-2017, 03:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
I don't think he really has experience in playing other sports because when you get more experienced in that sport you learn the other formats that the sport can be played in.
You are the one that is obviously unfamiliar with and unable to understand other formats in other sports because you still fail to see that what they pretty much all have in common for tournaments and competition is that they all have a format in place that allows both sides about an equal opportunity to compete. You also fail to understand the beneficial reasons why they have specifically and intentionally chosen to do it that way.

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
Your baseball analogy is a good one in that you don't stop batting until three outs. No matter how many runs scored.
Actually it was a horrible analogy. If you stop and think about it baseball has a format that allows both sides about an equal opportunity to compete and score, and as a result it would be impossible for a team to lose in baseball without having even been at bat. Plus you have a lot of control over ending the other team's offensive possession and getting offensive possession back yourself. It is nothing like winner breaks pool in regards to guaranteeing that both sides get about an equal opportunity to compete because like just about every other sport baseball intentionally ensures it and winner breaks pool doesn't even try.

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
No matter what, you can't watch earl run those racks, or witness Shane or Shaw put packages together and not be in awe, entertained, and thirsty for more. As long as that is happening winner break 9 ball is what I prefer and enjoy.
You still get to see those same packages with alternate breaks so you arenít losing that. Breaking and running 9 racks in a row is breaking and running 9 racks in a row regardless of which format it happens under. Itís still a 9 rack package of break and runs either way.

I also noticed that you once again chose not to answer my four questions since they would expose the lack of logic in your arguments. You still have a chance to try to answer them though.
  
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09-14-2017, 04:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
9 ball, always has been and meant to be winner breaks.
Winner breaks and bar rules pool where you have to call every little rail and ball contact both and can't play safe and all the other bar rule nonsense both started the same way. "Well I won the last game so I should get to break again." "Well a really good player should be able to call every contact and go for every shot." They both sound macho and seem to make sense on the surface when you don't give them much thought, which is how they were able to catch on, but when you examine them with some logic beyond how they sound at first impression you end up seeing that they don't actually make great sense and that another way is better. The guy that loves and is incredibly used to and stuck on winner breaks pool is often going to be about as easy to convince as the guy that loves and is used to and stuck on bar rules pool though, and for the same reasons.

You are also going to have to forgive me for not accepting ďbecause thatís the way itís always beenĒ as a good reason for something. In fact it is a rather stupid reason that always stifles advancement and improvement no matter what it is you are talking about. Only the ignorant or the lazy adopt an ďbecause thatís the way itís always beenĒ reasoning over an open minded critical examination using logical reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
Have to respect the game first before we can enjoy it.
I get wanting to respect tradition but on the flip side I donít think that being unwilling to make improvements in the name of ďthatís just the way it has always beenĒ is respecting the game either. A change that would allow for more accurate results in competitions, a higher percentage of exciting matches, and still keeps the packages is one that shouldnít be dismissed simply because ďthat isnít how it was done beforeĒ.

And whether winner breaks is even tradition any more would be debatable although it certainly used to be. It is still the most used format but it's use is declining, and alternate breaks has gotten pretty common these days both locally and nationally and with that in mind Iím not so sure winner breaks even rises to the level of tradition any more, not that tradition is a good reason for doing things that don't make the best sense anyway.
  
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09-14-2017, 05:09 AM

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Originally Posted by PoppaSaun View Post
Well, Jaden doesn't think we are being logical.

Thus I will counter that in every other sport, the team that scores relinquishes the scoring opportunity to the team which failed to defend.

Thus logically, playa and jaden should be arguing for loser-break format.
Actually you are using bad logic yet again. They are just alternating the offensive opportunities so both sides get about an equal opportunity to compete. To see it more clearly, try to think of the sports and games similar to 9 ball where each side participates back and forth, even in the same games, but never with the opponenst making shots/moves/etc at the exact same time. One pocket and chess are a couple that have been previously mentioned, and as you can see they alternate based on who last started with offensive possession. They do that to even out the advantage that starting the game with offensive possession causes which in turn can deprive one side the equal opportunity to compete. They don't alternate based on who scored last because it wouldn't accomplish that important goal.

If you analyze it carefully you will find that each sport has intentionally put rules in place that allow both sides about the equal opportunity to compete and score, but they are all forced to go about it in different ways due to the differences and intricacies of formats and rules involved in each sport. Their goal is never simply to have the scoring team always get the next possession or the non scoring team to always get next possession, although depending on the sport that may in fact be what they have to do to ensure that each team has about an equal opportunity for offensive possessions, whereas in other sports the differences in format and rules will require something a bit different to accomplish the same goal.
  
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09-14-2017, 05:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post
Pool to football was kinda silly.
You would only think it was silly if you aren’t capable of understanding the point being made which is that a format that doesn’t allow both sides about an equal opportunity to compete doesn't make much sense in a competition to see who is better--which is the main reason no other sport has a format that would allow that. I used football to illustrate that point by having you imagine another sport (in this case football) using the same type format as pool where whoever scores gets to retain offensive possession which may not allow the opponent a chance to compete much or even at all. Obviously you wouldn’t like that at all in football or any other sport because one team can be kept from competing and might lose the game without having had the ball much or even at all, yet you blindly accept that exact same silliness without a second thought in pool simply because you have the “that’s the way it’s always been and that's what I'm used to” bias blinding you.
  
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