Clarification of a rule please

S

Spikeithard

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So I seen this illustration.

14_1_rules.gif



But in this video at 26:50 Mike says the object ball goes on the head spot if its within the rack.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI9BJqyUhrI

Maybe I am not reading the chart correctly or something?

Thanks
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Spikeithard said:
So I seen this illustration.

14_1_rules.gif



But in this video at 26:50 Mike says the object ball goes on the head spot if its within the rack.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI9BJqyUhrI

Maybe I am not reading the chart correctly or something?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Mike is talking about he common situation where the 15th ball is in the rack and the cue ball is not in the rack and also not covering the head spot.
 
S

Spikeithard

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Bob Jewett said:
Mike is talking about he common situation where the 15th ball is in the rack and the cue ball is not in the rack and also not covering the head spot.
Click to expand...

Sorry im still confused then

How do you read that chart exactly? having problems following the rows and columns.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Spikeithard said:
Sorry im still confused then

How do you read that chart exactly? having problems following the rows and columns.
Click to expand...
The left-most column tells you where the 15th ball is. The first possibility is "In the rack". That's the row we want.

The top-most row tells you where the cue ball is. The middle column is the one we want. The first row of the middle column says 15th ball head spot, cue ball in position.

Here is the rule in text:

4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.
If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidently moved by the referee when racking.
​
I have put the part that applies in bold.
 
S

Spikeithard

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Bob Jewett said:
The left-most column tells you where the 15th ball is. The first possibility is "In the rack". That's the row we want.

The top-most row tells you where the cue ball is. The middle column is the one we want. The first row of the middle column says 15th ball head spot, cue ball in position.

Here is the rule in text:

4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.
If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidently moved by the referee when racking.
​
I have put the part that applies in bold.
Click to expand...

great thanks.. so far left down is 15th ball and top left to right is cue ball . go to where they intersect and bam. only thing thats a little hazy still is the asterisk on the last one about interfering ? I have never been good with instruction lol

should help
 
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J

john coloccia

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Spikeithard said:
great thanks.. so far left down is 15th ball and top left to right is cue ball . go to where they intersect and bam. only thing thats a little hazy still is the asterisk on the last one about interfering ? I have never been good with instruction lol

should help
Click to expand...

Think of it this way. If ANY ball interferes with the rack, you always put it on the head spot if it's the object ball, or it's ball in hand with the cue ball. If the ball that's supposed to go to the head spot can't because it's blocked, it goes to the center spot instead.

The rest of the rules deal with the oddball situations:

- If they're both in the rack, re-rack everything and cue ball in hand.

- If the 15th is behind the line and the cue is in the rack, the cue ball goes to the head spot (or center spot if it's blocked). This is so you can have a legal shot on the 15th.


That's it. One simple rule with two simple exceptions. The rules are a little poorly worded and long winded, IMHO, and the chart complicates it even more and makes it seems like there are a ton of different situations. There's only one situation...everything tries to go to the head spot (or ball in hand), with two exceptions for special cases where that's not possible.
 
S

Spikeithard

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john coloccia said:
Think of it this way. If ANY ball interferes with the rack, you always put it on the head spot if it's the object ball, or it's ball in hand with the cue ball. If the ball that's supposed to go to the head spot can't because it's blocked, it goes to the center spot instead.

The rest of the rules deal with the oddball situations:

- If they're both in the rack, re-rack everything and cue ball in hand.

- If the 15th is behind the line and the cue is in the rack, the cue ball goes to the head spot (or center spot if it's blocked). This is so you can have a legal shot on the 15th.


That's it. One simple rule with two simple exceptions. The rules are a little poorly worded and long winded, IMHO, and the chart complicates it even more and makes it seems like there are a ton of different situations. There's only one situation...everything tries to go to the head spot (or ball in hand), with two exceptions for special cases where that's not possible.
Click to expand...

ok coming a little clearer now.

and can you shoot back table on a BIH behind the head string?
 
bral

bral

AzB Silver Member
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Spikeithard said:
ok coming a little clearer now.

and can you shoot back table on a BIH behind the head string?
Click to expand...

If the 15th ball is behind the head string and the cue ball is in the rack, you don't get BIH with the cue ball, it goes on the head spot, as per the chart.
 
A

arcstats

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john coloccia said:
Think of it this way. If ANY ball interferes with the rack, you always put it on the head spot if it's the object ball, or it's ball in hand with the cue ball. If the ball that's supposed to go to the head spot can't because it's blocked, it goes to the center spot instead.

The rest of the rules deal with the oddball situations:

- If they're both in the rack, re-rack everything and cue ball in hand.

- If the 15th is behind the line and the cue is in the rack, the cue ball goes to the head spot (or center spot if it's blocked). This is so you can have a legal shot on the 15th.


That's it. One simple rule with two simple exceptions. The rules are a little poorly worded and long winded, IMHO, and the chart complicates it even more and makes it seems like there are a ton of different situations. There's only one situation...everything tries to go to the head spot (or ball in hand), with two exceptions for special cases where that's not possible.
Click to expand...

This leads to a situation I've never understood, or have gotten a logical explanation. I always thought that determining whether the 15th ball interfered with the rack was based on the actual position of that ball in relation to the racked balls. I was corrected of that at a recent 14.1 tournament and was informed that the actual rack determines whether the 15th ball gets spotted.

I think this is so illogical because to the best of my knowledge, there is no standard 14.1 rack (at least none advertised as such). Using a 1/4" diameter rack compared to a Diamond hardwood rack is a major variation when it comes to determining whether a ball gets spotted or not. Am I missing something here?
 
Bob Jewett

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arcstats said:
This leads to a situation I've never understood, or have gotten a logical explanation. I always thought that determining whether the 15th ball interfered with the rack was based on the actual position of that ball in relation to the racked balls. I was corrected of that at a recent 14.1 tournament and was informed that the actual rack determines whether the 15th ball gets spotted.

I think this is so illogical because to the best of my knowledge, there is no standard 14.1 rack (at least none advertised as such). Using a 1/4" diameter rack compared to a Diamond hardwood rack is a major variation when it comes to determining whether a ball gets spotted or not. Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...
Actually, it's the line drawn on the table that determines whether the ball is in the rack or not. In theory there is nothing to prevent you from using a standard template to draw the triangle and whatever triangle you want to actually rack the balls.

In Europe they "tap" the tables so they rack by rolling the balls into shallow pits. No physical triangle is involved. For 14.1 they need to draw some kind of triangle to determine in/out for run planning.
 
bral

bral

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Bob Jewett said:
Actually, it's the line drawn on the table that determines whether the ball is in the rack or not.
Click to expand...

In my practice sessions and the rare match I find, I've been spotting any last ball that interfered with racking. From what you're saying, that is incorrect. If I have a ball that technically would not be "in the rack" - but interferes with racking, I should be placing a marker for the 15th ball, remove the ball, rack the balls, then move the 15th ball back into position. Do I have that right?
 
acousticsguru

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Bob Jewett said:
In Europe they "tap" the tables so they rack by rolling the balls into shallow pits. No physical triangle is involved. For 14.1 they need to draw some kind of triangle to determine in/out for run planning.
Click to expand...

No longer, presumably as people used to purposely not play position on break shots but shoot the "dead" corner ball out of the stack after pocketing the break ball without even trying to go into the stack. In addition, especially in Youth competitions (e.g. European Championships), players would try to win the lag in order to shoot the apex ball into a middle pocket on the opening break. Last time I participated (at the Seniors), there was tapping in all games except Straight Pool, i.e. Straight Pool was racked at the other end of the table (where the head string is - the disadvantage was, no triangle drawn there either, plus the referee couldn't be bothered to check if an object ball is inside or outside the rack: up to the player to decide, which IMHO unnecessarily slows down play).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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Bob Jewett

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bral said:
In my practice sessions and the rare match I find, I've been spotting any last ball that interfered with racking. From what you're saying, that is incorrect. If I have a ball that technically would not be "in the rack" - but interferes with racking, I should be placing a marker for the 15th ball, remove the ball, rack the balls, then move the 15th ball back into position. Do I have that right?
Click to expand...
Yes. The ball should be marked and replaced. Those of us who shake some need more space to rack than others and in/out should not depend on the racker.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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acousticsguru said:
No longer, presumably as people used to purposely not play position on break shots but shoot the "dead" corner ball out the stack after pocketing the break ball without even trying to go into the stack. In addition, especially in Youth competitions (e.g. European Championships), players would try to win the lag in order to shoot the apex ball into a middle pocket on the opening break. Last time I participated (at the Seniors), there was tapping in all games except Straight Pool, i.e. Straight Pool was racked at the other end of the table (where the head string is - the disadvantage was, no triangle drawn there either, plus the referee couldn't be bothered to check if an object ball is inside or outside the rack: up to the player to decide, which IMHO unnecessarily slows down play).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Click to expand...
Well, that's interesting. It seems to me that it would have been easier to say no ball can be called from an undisturbed rack.
 
Bob Jewett

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ShakesSea said:
... I would think that in a rackless situation like a tapped table you could just go by whether you can roll the balls into place without interference ...
Click to expand...
The difficulty of that approach is that some break balls would be unplayable. Imagine a break ball that is just 1mm from two of the back balls.
 
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