The Pros and Cons of a Conservative vs Modern Style

acousticsguru · Jan 19, 2017

This discussion may include pattern play as well as more aggressive break shots à la Hohmann etc.

AZ member bluepepper's "Run This" threads reminded me of something the author of an article wrote (sorry, in German) about my playing style when I made a comeback playing pool after a ca. 19-year hiatus, referring to my playing style as "old-school" (notice the choice of illustration from The Hustler - LOL!) while recognizing one of its main advantages, that it lends itself to "keeping one's opponent away from the table". Incidentally, the author of the article was the Men's Single's National Champion and #1 at the time, and he had to play me twice in that tournament. I was most impressed in hindsight that he didn't just find the experience frustrating, but tried to initiate a (IMHO) potentially fruitful discussion from it, which didn't really catch on (nobody in this country has much interest nor plays Straight Pool, let alone enough to be able and compare playing styles).

I'm including the link because of the illustration (you're guaranteed to get the gist even if you don't understand a word!) as well as for the handful AZ members who might be able to read German:

http://www.swissbillard.ch/billardnews.asp?id=1602

Basically, his point is that what he refers to as my "notable old-school style" (anyone wondering note I'm not quite that old, LOL!) lends itself to safety play should anything go wrong etc. (the implication being: versus mistakes that might cost a player a game/match), i.e. that it is an altogether more conservative, risk-averse approach to Straight Pool that may serve to keep modern-day players in check (even though he also notes the consistency of runs, i.e. fair-enough ball count in-between).

I'm not entirely sure this is true, but it's an interesting point. Any thoughts on the matter are welcome!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

Bob Jewett · Jan 19, 2017

acousticsguru said:
... the handful AZ members who might be able to read German:

... Any thoughts on the matter are welcome! ...

Google Translate does a pretty good job on that article.

I think the main advantage us old players have when playing the non-traditional players is that we are more likely to do the "right" thing when playing safes and have a good chance to get the first shot.

For the shot selection part, one difference is the traditional approach of cleaning things up before breaking more balls out in secondary break shots. (Of course when you shoot break shots like Hohmann, there are no secondary break shots, but that is another story.) The ideal is to have exactly three balls loose when you do the secondary break shot: The object ball, the insurance ball, and (maybe) the prospective break ball.

In contrast, a local player has as his first priority to get any cluster apart. Hit it on this shot or at the latest on the next shot regardless of how many balls are already loose. He sometimes remakes clusters, but he has sufficient shooting accuracy and caroming skill that he can nearly always deal with them.

acousticsguru · Jan 19, 2017

Bob Jewett said:
The ideal is to have exactly three balls loose when you do the secondary break shot: The object ball, the insurance ball, and (maybe) the prospective break ball.

It's principles like these where I'm realizing I'm indeed "old-school" - the fact alone that I immediately know what you're talking about, versus the fact that I'm used to seeing some eyebrows raise saying anything like it to students (if indeed I'm getting any to practice and learn Straight Pool), with further explanation needed. I love your way of putting it as it is more concise: I might have said, at the very least, any ball on the side of the cluster or stack towards which one is going to open the balls needs to be gone, preserving the same three balls you've listed, plus preferably all that are close to a rail need to disappear beforehand. I'm personally not strict when it comes to leaving up-table and/or center table balls that may or may not later serve as key balls - unless, to reiterate, they're towards where one is going to open the stack. (Having said that, I'm against leaving a ball in the exact centre of table, but that's another advanced principle one might add/discuss at some later point.)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

acousticsguru · Jan 19, 2017

Something else I'm convinced of is that a more modern, aggressive playing style, combined with shorter races and K.O. stages after a round-robin qualifier all contribute to tournaments taking unnecessarily long - the exact contrary of what the uninformed tend to think. I'm usually first or second to finish my match in every round - and I'm the kind of player about whom a former student once quipped "I get it now, you're faster because you're slower!"

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

acousticsguru · Jan 19, 2017

Just gathering some more thoughts to do with the main/thread topic:

1. I don't believe old-school players used to "tickle the balls" and merely try to "break a ball out" etc. as people sometimes claim. The equipment was different. They'd open the rack as well as they could in a controlled manner (there's no "virtue" in babying the break shot). I grew up playing on worsted wool cloth - and sometimes wish we'd return to using it (everyone seems to be poking at the cue ball these days, what virtue/advantage is there to having practiced a smooth stroke, misspent youth and all…?!).

2. I don't believe there's a playing style that lends itself to "rhythm" any more or less than another. To know or not know what to do comes with experience: play a lot of Straight Pool, and you'll learn to see the patterns in no time. There's no greater rhythm breaker, IMHO, than to continually be out of line, having to shoot tougher shots than necessary, and know it!

3. I don't believe one style lends itself to running more balls than the other. I've always felt there are what I call "neuralgic points " or moments where runs tend to end (a matter of likelihood/percentages), e.g. my own runs have a tendency to end on the first shot after a break shot (for the usual reasons: no shot or too tough, iffy off-angle combination etc.) - not everything is in one's control (i.e. not even shooting a break shot with all the precision and confidence in the World will guarantee there's always going to be an easy ball to shoot next). No wonder e.g. the high run on the 10-foot table (shared by Crane and Mosconi, apparently or rather, miraculously - I've always wondered how this could be) is 309…

4. To reiterate: I don't believe one style lends itself to running more balls than the other. Of course pattern play may seem easier to execute with balls spread all over the table – but doing the right thing (dissecting the rack/pattern play) has nothing to do with shooting the break shots timidly or with confidence (happens to be the only shot per rack I like to shoot hard).

5. I do not believe there’s any virtue in always hitting the break shots with speed either. Thorsten Hohmann, as great a Straight Pool player as he is, wasn’t the first to shoot the break shots hard, nor is he always in control of what he's doing (I've once seen him scratch twice in the same head corner on the same type of shot - in the same match!). One who always did and whom I first met in the late eighties, when I asked him how he managed to always know he’d not e.g. draw the cue ball all the way into a head corner pocket (what Hohmann occasionally does, too, as in the match mentioned above), replied he did not know. He said his feel for the type of shot was continually improving because he’d shoot it so often (excellent point worth remembering!), but that he’d still occasionally scratch, and that it was simply a trade-off or risk he was willing to take (because he didn't like dissecting the rack, i.e. he felt having to continually play close position wore on his concentration).

6. I don’t believe in shooting a tough shot to keep a run going in tournament play, not even if the outcome of the match were, in Grady’s words, “a foregone conclusion”. I believe in control from a psychological perspective: no use taking a flyer even if one keeps making them – the fact alone one knows it’s the wrong shot or wrong thing to do may affect one’s self-perception, self-esteem and, in the long run, decision-making process.

More some other time…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

CueAndMe · Jan 19, 2017

Thanks for your thoughts, David and Bob. Keep it up! I just got a 9' table for my basement. I hope to practice more now and incorporate what I'm learning in this forum. Most of you are better players than I am, and I know I can learn from you. I hope to break my high run of 60-ish sometime soon. Sadly, the table has extremely tight pockets (4.25") and the slate is warped. How many bonus points do I get for that?

acousticsguru · Jan 19, 2017

bluepepper said:
Thanks for your thoughts, David and Bob. Keep it up! I just got a 9' table for my basement. I hope to practice more now and incorporate what I'm learning in this forum. Most of you are better players than I am, and I know I can learn from you. I hope to break my high run of 60-ish sometime soon. Sadly, the table has extremely tight pockets (4.25") and the slate is warped. How many bonus points do I get for that?

None! To prevail in the face of adversity will make you a better player!

Have fun! :thumbup:

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

StraightPoolIU · Jan 19, 2017

First full disclosure I'm not accomplished enough as a straight pool player to have a "style". However, I do enjoy the game and I've watched a lot of it and a lot of different players. Personally my opinion is that one way isn't necessarily superior to the other, but is an organic outgrowth of a particular player's personality or the equipment of their era. The current era of players grew up playing rotation games on fast cloth with clean high quality balls. All of those things breed agressive pool in all forms. In the era of Mosconi and the old old masters it wouldn't have even been practical to hit the draw to the top rail and down Toasty breakshots. Thus a lot of them adopted a more conservative approach to safety play and break shots. When you look at guys that kind of bridged the 14.1 and 9 ball eras I think you see a mix. Sigel was not a guy who hit breakshots easy, but you'd never see him draw to the top rail and down.

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Straightpool_99 · Jan 19, 2017

Most of the high runs I've watched have been somewhat uncontrolled (as compared to the legendary 1 inch of accuracy runs one hears about). I have never seen anyone control the cueball down to an inch of accuracy, nor have I ever seen anyone play perfect insurance. It's all a matter of degrees, not absolutes. I get higher high runs when I play aggressive, but conservative play gives me better consistency.

Sometimes you see a cluster and just know how it will break apart, and no insurance ball is necessary. That comes with experience. At other times the outcome is more in question. You can stil maximize your chances by choosing the proper speed and cue ball travel line. This is no less knowledgable than the "insurance ball strategy", though you will of course have instances where people hit these perfectly out of pure luck. When you watch a player that has this knowledge, you can sometimes be fooled into thinking he's lucky, when in fact knowledge and skill are the main contributors to his results. John Schmidt does this sometimes. I don't particularly lilke to watch him play, as there is little there to use in my own game, but he does have more control than it would appear from a superficial glance.

All that being said, someone who is a phenomenal shotmaker and has great cueball control is going to run quite a lot of balls in 14.1, even without a lot of specialized knowledge.

wigglybridge · Jan 19, 2017

"Most of the high runs I've watched have been somewhat uncontrolled (as compared to the legendary 1 inch of accuracy runs one hears about). I have never seen anyone control the cueball down to an inch of accuracy, nor have I ever seen anyone play perfect insurance. It's all a matter of degrees, not absolutes. I get higher high runs when I play aggressive, but conservative play gives me better consistency."

maybe one exception is Appleton's 200, which you've likely watched. for a modern 8/9/10 ball player, it is a remarkably controlled, precise run, with just the type of position play you describe.

i'm always amused when i hear commentary on Darren's 14.1 play, because the commentators are always, Always assuming he's going to smash things up... despite the fact that he actually plays an extraordinarily contained game, and Never goes into the balls unless he absolutely has to. i think his straight pool game is greatly underestimated.

StraightPoolIU · Jan 19, 2017

wigglybridge said:
"Most of the high runs I've watched have been somewhat uncontrolled (as compared to the legendary 1 inch of accuracy runs one hears about). I have never seen anyone control the cueball down to an inch of accuracy, nor have I ever seen anyone play perfect insurance. It's all a matter of degrees, not absolutes. I get higher high runs when I play aggressive, but conservative play gives me better consistency."

maybe one exception is Appleton's 200, which you've likely watched. for a modern 8/9/10 ball player, it is a remarkably controlled, precise run, with just the type of position play you describe.

i'm always amused when i hear commentary on Darren's 14.1 play, because the commentators are always, Always assuming he's going to smash things up... despite the fact that he actually plays an extraordinarily contained game, and Never goes into the balls unless he absolutely has to. i think his straight pool game is greatly underestimated.

You're right. I completely forgot about his 200 ball run, and forgot how well Darren plays the game. He absolutely plays a more controlled style than some modern players.

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alstl · Jan 20, 2017

Equipment is probably a factor also. It's been a long time since I played with clay balls and nap cloth but I don't think the balls spread as good as they do now with fast cloth and plastic balls.

CueAndMe · Jan 20, 2017

alstl said:
Equipment is probably a factor also. It's been a long time since I played with clay balls and nap cloth but I don't think the balls spread as good as they do now with fast cloth and plastic balls.

I was surprised to learn that people collect old clay ball sets to play. There must be quite a difference in how they play.

acousticsguru · Jan 20, 2017

alstl said:
Equipment is probably a factor also. It's been a long time since I played with clay balls and nap cloth but I don't think the balls spread as good as they do now with fast cloth and plastic balls.

They sure don't - the reason I've always maintained that old-school player didn't "tickle the balls" and "know a ball out" on purpose, as some people claim, they simply did the best they could to open the balls in a controlled manner.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

acousticsguru · Jan 20, 2017

bluepepper said:
I was surprised to learn that people collect old clay ball sets to play. There must be quite a difference in how they play.

They don't skid, for one thing. Seriously, no misses due to bad contacts whatsoever, pretty cool, that!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

lfigueroa · Jan 20, 2017

acousticsguru said:
They sure don't - the reason I've always maintained that old-school player didn't "tickle the balls" and "know a ball out" on purpose, as some people claim, they simply did the best they could to open the balls in a controlled manner.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

I would just comment that when I took my 14.1 lesson with Dallas West, and he was walking me through a run, I was always ready to go into clusters and break more balls open. And he kept stopping me saying, "Not yet. There's time to get those open later."

His style, definitely old school, was to control opening the balls as much as possible, and then not spreading them too far.

Lou Figueroa

acousticsguru · Jan 20, 2017

lfigueroa said:
I would just comment that when I took my 14.1 lesson with Dallas West, and he was walking me through a run, I was always ready to go into clusters and break more balls open. And he kept stopping me saying, "Not yet. There's time to get those open later."

His style, definitely old school, was to control opening the balls as much as possible, and then not spreading them too far.

Lou Figueroa

What I try to do, too. And it's true (harking back to the thread topic) that it's usually easier not to leave a shot, let alone an open table in case one is forced to play safe running out of position and/or balls to shoot at.

One of my most profound beliefs in Straight Pool is that one should never shoot a shot one could miss, and as far as "pattern play" is concerned proceed from there (patterns should come naturally, try and learn to make the one that plays easiest the "right one" by leaving yourself options, and relying on the freedom and insurance options afford, by playing accurate position, not vice versa). Which leads directly to what Dallas says: the conviction that one is going to solve the puzzle, get to problems soon enough, that there's no hurry to solve them all immediately, let alone at once.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

lfigueroa · Jan 20, 2017

acousticsguru said:
What I try to do, too. And it's true (harking back to the thread topic) that it's usually easier not to leave a shot, let alone an open table in case one is forced to play safe running out of position and/or balls to shoot at.

One of my most profound beliefs in Straight Pool is that one should never shoot a shot one could miss, and as far as "pattern play" is concerned proceed from there (patterns should come naturally, try and learn to make the one that plays easiest the "right one" by leaving yourself options, and relying on the freedom and insurance options afford, by playing accurate position, not vice versa). Which leads directly to what Dallas says: the conviction that one is going to solve the puzzle, get to problems soon enough, that there's no hurry to solve them all immediately, let alone at once.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

Nothing to do with what you'd leave. Never crossed his mind.

Dallas' style of play is predicated on precise position play and a logical pattern. You just have to be able to see the logical solution. That's what he teaches.

Lou Figueroa

acousticsguru · Jan 21, 2017

lfigueroa said:
Nothing to do with what you'd leave. Never crossed his mind.

Dallas' style of play is predicated on precise position play and a logical pattern. You just have to be able to see the logical solution. That's what he teaches.

Lou Figueroa

I realize that - Dallas is a run-out player, like all pro Straight Pool players. Having said that, the principles he teaches are older than him, with some harking back to an era when the equipment was tougher than what he was confronted with throughout his career. In short, I was just noticing (or rather the author of the article I posted) that "control" as a concept also lends itself to leaving the table in controlled manner, should the need arise.

One of my favorite Dallas West credos is "Fight for every inch!", by the way. It's what keeps a player keen and alert during a run - the fact alone that does the right thing, has chosen the correct pattern etc. won't do. One's primary focus is on execution. I've always felt that Straight Pool players "enjoy" detail, whereas modern-day rotation players don't always have the patience - although there are exceptions on either side, of course.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

acousticsguru · Jan 22, 2017

Linking a run of mine (again) that I believe is representative of the "old-school" obsession of shooting the easiest shot at all times, finding insurance scenarios, leaving oneself options, all the while fighting for every inch playing position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftKJTABtrhg

I'm not saying it's ideal, but I don't have a camera, hence few videos. Slow playing even for me (see the bright side: plenty of time to think along), as I had to take a migraine pill that day, which usually gives me that "brain like a sieve" type of feeling or numbness, also makes me squint at the balls as light will hurt my eyes (it's really as if one were still suffering from the migraine, if minus the pain).

Fighting the table speed in the first rack (first and only run that night, which I only played after giving instruction because I'd managed to borrow a camera), under-hitting at least three positions, but cleaner after that.

Should really have gone three rails from the 10 to the 12 and 3 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftKJTABtrhg&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m20s into the run, plenty of options that way, plus I knew all along I shouldn't leave the 12 until last, but I was too cowardly to leave myself a possibly awkward shot (but a position play I like and tend to execute well, so no reason really). My mistake, as it would then perhaps not have mattered I got sharked a little while later (for the second time in this run, first time round at 41:33 was funnier than the second time round - miracle I didn't miss the shot on the 12…).

In a nutshell, worth watching especially for those who, like me, consider themselves mediocre (at best) shotmakers. Remarks/questions/discussion/ridicule welcome!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

The Pros and Cons of a Conservative vs Modern Style

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