Stretch Shadows?

Tomster

Registered
I've seen them on quite a few newly installed cloth's, and even when following the Simonis DVD stretch indexing proceedure I've got the odd one myself (although I wasn't using installing Simonis cloth).

What is actually happening within the cloth that causes this problem, and how will it effect play?

Thank in advance.
 
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playonepocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stretch Shadows

This has been talked about a lot on the forum.

The following query in Google should give you enough to read about for a while:

PHP:
cloth stretch shadows site:azbilliards.com

Bottom line: The cloth isn't evenly pulled.

Even Diamond hasn't fully figured it out yet. Here is a screen shot from this past year's DCC.

ScF9AZn.jpg


If you notice along the right hand long rail, there are no shadows. That is because the cloth is pulled straight, and likely anchored on that side.

Conversely, on the left hand long rail - the technician arbitrarily pulled the cloth tighter in some spots and more loosely in others. Which results in the shadows or "waves" in the cloth. Usually more pronounced near the side pockets.

Hope this helps.

P.S. When playing one pocket, I take the pocket on the right hand side. When you lag bank a ball straight back inside the first diamond, it is less likely to roll off.
 

playonepocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For more perspective, see below:

Ok8wxjK.jpg


Notice where the shadows appear in this tent? Along the points of contact/tension.

If the tent was fastened evenly, there would be no shadows near the lower grounded edge.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I've seen them on quite a few newly installed cloth's, and even when following the Simonis DVD stretch indexing proceedure I've got the odd one myself (although I wasn't using installing Simonis cloth).

What is actually happening within the cloth that causes this problem, and how will it effect play?

Thank in advance.

Only an unbalanced stretch creates the shadows. This is an example of a perfectly installed bed cloth to show it can be installed without the shadows.
 

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detroitfan0877

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very nice RKC. I never noticed this but do you run your pocket liners around the radius of the pocket the outside of the pocket and attach them to the backing board?

I didn't think that's how the simonis videos showed but ill have to rewatch them i guess.
 

Tomster

Registered
Yep - no flies on that. I really need to learn how to do those pocket liners as well, they really do finish it off perfectly.

On the stretch shadowing, it seems like the darker areas are the areas that are pulled too tight.

So would I be right in thinking then that a perfectly installed cloth is one that has been stretched as tightly as possible, up to the point just before stretch shadowing takes place?
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Yep - no flies on that. I really need to learn how to do those pocket liners as well, they really do finish it off perfectly.

On the stretch shadowing, it seems like the darker areas are the areas that are pulled too tight.

So would I be right in thinking then that a perfectly installed cloth is one that has been stretched as tightly as possible, up to the point just before stretch shadowing takes place?

No, a perfectly installed bed cloth is installed from the center pockets out in a bidirectional stretch pattern, meaning stretched side and end to end at the same time, but only side to side up to within 3/4" of its maximum side to side stretch, allowing the end to end stretch to keep the stretch shadows from forming by moving that stretch area towards the ends of the slate.
 

Tomster

Registered
No, a perfectly installed bed cloth is installed from the center pockets out in a bidirectional stretch pattern, meaning stretched side and end to end at the same time, but only side to side up to within 3/4" of its maximum side to side stretch, allowing the end to end stretch to keep the stretch shadows from forming by moving that stretch area towards the ends of the slate.

OK, got it.

One thing though that has been bugging me about the Simonis DVD. It states to pull the cloth until springy on the length ways anchor side, but the stretch applied to the length ways stretch side is a much more powerful stetch.

If it is a true bidirectional stretch, shouldn't both side lengths be stretched to the same tension?

I followed the DVD to the letter on the first cloth I did, but found I was left with loose cloth in front of the anchor side side pocket. On the second cloth I pulled the anchor side side ends much tighter than springy and that helped, although did not totally cure the problem.

As you say above, it's bidriectional stretch out from the side pockets, but if you follow the DVD word for word you are applying different bidirectional stretch levels to either side of the table.

Any thoughts on this?
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
OK, got it.

One thing though that has been bugging me about the Simonis DVD. It states to pull the cloth until springy on the length ways anchor side, but the stretch applied to the length ways stretch side is a much more powerful stetch.

If it is a true bidirectional stretch, shouldn't both side lengths be stretched to the same tension?

I followed the DVD to the letter on the first cloth I did, but found I was left with loose cloth in front of the anchor side side pocket. On the second cloth I pulled the anchor side side ends much tighter than springy and that helped, although did not totally cure the problem.

As you say above, it's bidriectional stretch out from the side pockets, but if you follow the DVD word for word you are applying different bidirectional stretch levels to either side of the table.

Any thoughts on this?
When stretching across the slate, and pulling towards the end, pull towards the end until there is no more stretch left to pull, then anchor the cloth next to the corner pocket. Then do the samething to the other end/ side stretch.
 

Tomster

Registered
When stretching across the slate, and pulling towards the end, pull towards the end until there is no more stretch left to pull, then anchor the cloth next to the corner pocket. Then do the samething to the other end/ side stretch.

Go it with the stretch side, but what about the anchor side?

If I don't pull full stretch on this side as well, I end up with ripples around the side pocket that won't pull out when I stretch for length, even with correct stretch indexing.

Could it be that because the cloth I'm using is thicker at around 670g/m as opposed to Simonis 860 at 410g/m, it needs a harder/full stretch on the anchor side to flatten the cloth out around the anchor pocket?
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Go it with the stretch side, but what about the anchor side?

If I don't pull full stretch on this side as well, I end up with ripples around the side pocket that won't pull out when I stretch for length, even with correct stretch indexing.

Could it be that because the cloth I'm using is thicker at around 670g/m as opposed to Simonis 860 at 410g/m, it needs a harder/full stretch on the anchor side to flatten the cloth out around the anchor pocket?

What it means is you're not stretching hard enough from the side pocket to the corner pockets. Unless you're recovering a bar table with an undersized slate and the pocket shelfs are shallow.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Go it with the stretch side, but what about the anchor side?

If I don't pull full stretch on this side as well, I end up with ripples around the side pocket that won't pull out when I stretch for length, even with correct stretch indexing.

Could it be that because the cloth I'm using is thicker at around 670g/m as opposed to Simonis 860 at 410g/m, it needs a harder/full stretch on the anchor side to flatten the cloth out around the anchor pocket?

The slack in the anchor side pocket should be 13/16" in on both sides, and 5/8" in on both sides of the stretch to side pocket.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Go it with the stretch side, but what about the anchor side?

If I don't pull full stretch on this side as well, I end up with ripples around the side pocket that won't pull out when I stretch for length, even with correct stretch indexing.

Could it be that because the cloth I'm using is thicker at around 670g/m as opposed to Simonis 860 at 410g/m, it needs a harder/full stretch on the anchor side to flatten the cloth out around the anchor pocket?

Over stretching side to side cuts down the ability to stretch end to end as needed to pull out the slack in the side pockets.
 

Tomster

Registered
The slack in the anchor side pocket should be 13/16" in on both sides, and 5/8" in on both sides of the stretch to side pocket.

As per the DVD, I allowed for 13/16" on both sides of the anchor pockets, 5/8" on both sides of the stretch side side pockets.

But, the issue is not with this, it's with the instruction in the DVD to make the pull towards of the ends of the slate from the anchor side pocket "springy".

If I try to do springy, maybe 65% pull, I end up with ripples around the anchor side pocket that do not pull out when I stretch for length.

If I pull 90-100% on the anchor side the problem seems to be 95% sorted.

Something, is not quite right.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
As per the DVD, I allowed for 13/16" on both sides of the anchor pockets, 5/8" on both sides of the stretch side side pockets.

But, the issue is not with this, it's with the instruction in the DVD to make the pull towards of the ends of the slate from the anchor side pocket "springy".

If I try to do springy, maybe 65% pull, I end up with ripples around the anchor side pocket that do not pull out when I stretch for length.

If I pull 90-100% on the anchor side the problem seems to be 95% sorted.

Something, is not quite right.

What size table, what make of cloth? Did you perform the stretch index test, what is the stretch you're pulling side to side?
 

Tomster

Registered
8ft table, Andy 588 cloth.

Followed the DVD instructions to the letter and the max stretch across the table when clamped was 2.17 inches. Backed off 3/4" and set the stretch to 1.42 inches.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
8ft table, Andy 588 cloth.

Followed the DVD instructions to the letter and the max stretch across the table when clamped was 2.17 inches. Backed off 3/4" and set the stretch to 1.42 inches.

I've installed Andy cloth before, shouldn't have had a problem with slack across the table between side pockets, pull harder when stretching from the side pocket to the corners, can't over stretch it, and when you can't stretch it anymore....then it's stretched tight. I've never encountered a problem installing any kind of cloth on any pool table with my system.
 
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