TOI question

ln817

Registered
just got the DVD and i was kinda confused, Every time i hit center ball I always used left english to throw the ball to the right and vice versa. But on this dvd is advocating using right english to throw the ball right. Am I missing something here? Any help clearing this up would be great from anyone who watched this DVD.
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It has to do with your stroke. You have to accelerate properly in order to make it work. Otherwise you will make a ''spin'' shot which produces different results.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
It has to do with your stroke. You have to accelerate properly in order to make it work. Otherwise you will make a ''spin'' shot which produces different results.

So you are actually deflecting the cue ball to the outside of the object ball ?
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
In,

I'll try again as the site crash must have lost my post.

TOI is not intended to utilize spin to pocket balls. CJ must have mis-spoken as he has used the term 'throw' technically incorrecly at times per the AZB science standards.

If cutting a ball from the spot to the right hand corner pocket with the cue ball up table & to the left side of the table, line the shot up so the object ball would hit the short rail pocket point, then do not shoot it with a center hit on the CB but slide parallel a 'touch to the inside right', now hit it with a straight firm parallel stroke.

The cue ball will squirt/deflect to the left & add cut onto the OB & send it to the middle of the pocket. Now the bit of spin that is on the CB from the off center hit at least cancels out the normal outside running spin that it would normally pick up from the cut collision. This is what makes the CB 'float' especially when coming off of a rail without the normal running spin that it would normally have picked up.

I hope this helps a bit until CJ answers.

Regards &
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
TOI System enables you more control of the cue ball because you are using the.......

just got the DVD and i was kinda confused, Every time i hit center ball I always used left english to throw the ball to the right and vice versa. But on this dvd is advocating using right english to throw the ball right. Am I missing something here? Any help clearing this up would be great from anyone who watched this DVD.

The TOI isn't about using "English," it's about hitting the Inside of the Cue Ball to encourage a slight deflection. The TOI shot I suggest to "master" encourages very little spin. The foundation of the technique is to encourage a NO SPIN reaction of the cue ball after it contacts the object ball.
The position part of the TOI System enables you more control of the cue ball because you are using the true "weight" of the cue ball on every shot. Spin makes the cue ball "run" further and makes the cue ball seem "lighter" (of course we can't literally change the actual weight of the cue ball).

The key change is you will need to hit the cue ball firmer and try to maintain a consistent shot speed. Consistency is doing the same thing over and over, and the TOI Technique encourages you to 1) Hit the cue ball a consistent speed 2) Play ALL shots like they're straight in consistently 3) Hit the Inside of the cue ball consistently

Here's another free video that describes how the TOI brings out the perfection of the game. "The Game is the Teacher" - Click Picture to See More

 

pablocruz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In,

I'll try again as the site crash must have lost my post.

TOI is not intended to utilize spin to pocket balls. CJ must have mis-spoken as he has used the term 'throw' technically incorrecly at times per the AZB science standards.

If cutting a ball from the spot to the right hand corner pocket with the cue ball up table & to the left side of the table, line the shot up so the object ball would hit the short rail pocket point, then do not shoot it with a center hit on the CB but slide parallel a 'touch to the inside right', now hit it with a straight firm parallel stroke.

The cue ball will squirt/deflect to the left & add cut onto the OB & send it to the middle of the pocket. Now the bit of spin that is on the CB from the off center hit at least cancels out the normal outside running spin that it would normally pick up from the cut collision. This is what makes the CB 'float' especially when coming off of a rail without the normal running spin that it would normally have picked up.

I hope this helps a bit until CJ answers.

Regards &

Wouldn't the short rail pocket point be to the left of the pocket, thus inducing a miss? Why would your aim not be at the long rail pocket-point, which would be to the right, thus using a touch of inside would (throw) the ball back to the left as intended!! maybe I'm missing something!!
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As the shot is described (right cut off the spot to the corner), you would need to align to the short rail point. By shifting slightly right for the TOI, the cue ball will deflect left, so in this case the object ball needs to be slightly left of the intended target pocket. You are looking for deflection, not throw, because of the speed being used.

Scott
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
The TOI isn't about using "English," it's about hitting the Inside of the Cue Ball to encourage a slight deflection. The TOI shot I suggest to "master" encourages very little spin. The foundation of the technique is to encourage a NO SPIN reaction of the cue ball after it contacts the object ball.
The position part of the TOI System enables you more control of the cue ball because you are using the true "weight" of the cue ball on every shot. Spin makes the cue ball "run" further and makes the cue ball seem "lighter" (of course we can't literally change the actual weight of the cue ball).

The key change is you will need to hit the cue ball firmer and try to maintain a consistent shot speed. Consistency is doing the same thing over and over, and the TOI Technique encourages you to 1) Hit the cue ball a consistent speed 2) Play ALL shots like they're straight in consistently 3) Hit the Inside of the cue ball consistently.

CJ.. Would 'stop shot speed' be the correct consistent speed?
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm pretty sure this will be true for most players

CJ.. Would 'stop shot speed' be the correct consistent speed?

Yes, I think that's a good way to think about it. The speed of you shots need to be consistent, so I recommend a firmer stroke than what you're probably using now. What we often don't realize is when hitting many different speeds and spins we are having to make a LOT of calculations.

The TOI method blends the shot speed, spin/deflection, and cue ball "tip target" into one type of shot. If you always hit the same speed, aim at the same side of the cue ball and use your tip to create the angle you are, in effect "allowing the game to play," rather than forcing it.

This may be a different way of looking at the game (if you don't currently use this system), however, after experiencing "The Touch," I would never want to play any other way. I'm pretty sure this will be true for most players that truly commit to understanding and incorporating the TOI Technique as I've described it. Many already do. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The 3part pocket system

Wouldn't the short rail pocket point be to the left of the pocket, thus inducing a miss? Why would your aim not be at the long rail pocket-point, which would be to the right, thus using a touch of inside would (throw) the ball back to the left as intended!! maybe I'm missing something!!

Using the Touch of Inside does not involve "inside english," this is the most difficult point to communicate. You can cue the ball slightly off center without putting a noticeable amount of spin. As a matter of fact most players do it all the time, thinking they're hitting center. If you are off center just slightly the cue ball will deflect slightly.

The problem is when you try to hit center and make this error you won't know you did it. It happens to fast and you simply miss the shot....with no sure reason why. When you start to favor the Inside of the cue ball you also begin to understand how the "margin of error" in pool really works.

You will start to play the deflection to intentionally over cut each shot (except straight in shots of course), then you can aim at the 1st part of the pocket (closest side) and hit it into the center or even the outside edge of the pocket. This is the system I use called the "3Part Pocket System". For more info on this system, CLICK THIS LINK - THE 3PART POCKET SYSTEM
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Really great stuff, CJ, and I'm excited to see your TOI DVD is sold out on your website. Your system could improve someone's all around game and I love TOI for hitting the cue ball firmly, "floating it around the table" as you've written, holding the first ball tightly on line for a combination, pinching a very hard draw shot, etc. A really nice system IMO. I developed something somewhat similar when I first got interested in getting more cue ball control.
 

hlymnstr14

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, I think that's a good way to think about it. The speed of you shots need to be consistent, so I recommend a firmer stroke than what you're probably using now. What we often don't realize is when hitting many different speeds and spins we are having to make a LOT of calculations.

The TOI method blends the shot speed, spin/deflection, and cue ball "tip target" into one type of shot. If you always hit the same speed, aim at the same side of the cue ball and use your tip to create the angle you are, in effect "allowing the game to play," rather than forcing it.

This may be a different way of looking at the game (if you don't currently use this system), however, after experiencing "The Touch," I would never want to play any other way. I'm pretty sure this will be true for most players that truly commit to understanding and incorporating the TOI Technique as I've described it. Many already do. 'The Game is the Teacher'

i haven't had a chance to watch the entire video yet. but i've been messing around with TOI the past couple days. it definitely works. you do have to calibrate it. i have an OB classic pro.

2 shots in particular that the TOI works wonders on.

a long straight in shot, i've always had problems with this shot probably due to not hitting the CB in the center. with this shot, i will offset my aim to one side or the other just a fraction, use the appropriate side of TOI and the ball goes in every time. this is actually easier to do than trying to hit a ball dead center with a perfect stroke.

then the opposite of that, a long ALMOST straight in shot. i can simply shoot at the center of the object ball but with TOI, the ball goes in everytime.

accounting for squirt rather than trying to have zero squirt makes these shots so much easier.
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
cue ball striking gets more accurate you will develop the ability to "target".......

i haven't had a chance to watch the entire video yet. but i've been messing around with TOI the past couple days. it definitely works. you do have to calibrate it. i have an OB classic pro.

2 shots in particular that the TOI works wonders on.

a long straight in shot, i've always had problems with this shot probably due to not hitting the CB in the center. with this shot, i will offset my aim to one side or the other just a fraction, use the appropriate side of TOI and the ball goes in every time. this is actually easier to do than trying to hit a ball dead center with a perfect stroke.

then the opposite of that, a long ALMOST straight in shot. i can simply shoot at the center of the object ball but with TOI, the ball goes in everytime.

accounting for squirt rather than trying to have zero squirt makes these shots so much easier.


Yes, this system incorporated many factors that the players I've worked with (that prob. represent many) never took in to account how much hitting slightly off center effects the cue ball's path. Deflection/squirt is talked about like it's a "bad" thing, and it is if you don't understand how to use it as a positive influence, instead of being a victim of it {in your game}.

As your stoke and cue ball striking gets more accurate you will develop the ability to "target" different sides of the pocket at will. This means you can "cheat" the pocket in a way that provides you will more flexibility in case you get "out of line" (out of position) on your shot. Spin does work for this as well, but TOI works much better and again, you have to experience this to know what I'm talking about. Being able to hit 3 "pocket zones" instead of just "trying" to hit the center of the pocket will raise your game immensely.

Remember too, if you're not using the "Touch" of Inside on EVERY shot, you still are not really using it effectively. Just using it on "certain shots" will NOT provide you with long term improvements. Then you will still be using different spins and speeds and making many more calculations than someone that is just using the TOI Technique on every shot. Over time, you can't beat someone that masters their TOI shot and uses is consistently.....I've proved this many, many times with even the worlds greatest players that don't use one consistent shot.

TOI takes all our human qualities and provides a way to play the game better, for a longer period of time. I will take this position and debate it with anyone, it's simply a fact that a person that uses ONE SPEED, ONE AIMING METHOD, and ONE CUE BALL{TIP}TARGET {all blended in the TOI Technique} they will have a huge advantage, especially over many hours of competition.
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ,

I appreciate the concept of TOI, even played with a bit when you first started talking about it, but still confused on two things:

- How to potentially use TOI with Pro1, SEE, etc. - systems that in theory are all about aligning you with center cueball and the center of the pocket. After working with those for any length of time, I feel like one would have to perform that alignment/pivot/etc to get to center ball, then adjust from there manually to aim at the outer edge of the pocket and tweak the stick slightly to the inside as well. Can't imagine every being able to incorporate into one smooth movement, but maybe there is a way...

- You mentioned in the last post that if you aren't using it on every shot you are not really using it effectively. I get that for average shots that come up it can be helpful, especially once your alignment offset, speed, and inside cueing technique are standardized. But what about when you need to hit the ball softer, especially at distance? Or need outside english to tweak your position route or to pull the cue ball back off one cushion (pretty common)? Or even need true inside english to spin out 2 or 3 rails? Just curious if you are still doing something different on those shots or you forego the TOI when necessary.

Thanks!
Scott
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The TOI is NOT just an aiming system,

CJ,

I appreciate the concept of TOI, even played with a bit when you first started talking about it, but still confused on two things:

- How to potentially use TOI with Pro1, SEE, etc. - systems that in theory are all about aligning you with center cueball and the center of the pocket. After working with those for any length of time, I feel like one would have to perform that alignment/pivot/etc to get to center ball, then adjust from there manually to aim at the outer edge of the pocket and tweak the stick slightly to the inside as well. Can't imagine every being able to incorporate into one smooth movement, but maybe there is a way...

- You mentioned in the last post that if you aren't using it on every shot you are not really using it effectively. I get that for average shots that come up it can be helpful, especially once your alignment offset, speed, and inside cueing technique are standardized. But what about when you need to hit the ball softer, especially at distance? Or need outside english to tweak your position route or to pull the cue ball back off one cushion (pretty common)? Or even need true inside english to spin out 2 or 3 rails? Just curious if you are still doing something different on those shots or you forego the TOI when necessary.

Thanks!
Scott


You really wouldn't want to use the Touch of Inside Technique with any other system...it wouldn't be necessary.

Have you seen the video? I explain all these things in vivid detail in the 91 minute video. Trying to explain this in writing isn't nearly as effective as watching the demonstration and explanation in person...or "virtually" in person ;) The TOI is NOT just an aiming system, even though you are able to create any angle you'll need to play pool using the system.

TOI BLENDS the shot speed, shot angle, and cue tip target into one system. There's really no reason to have a separate "aiming system," unless you really want to....I've never really "aimed" at a shot, I align with the cue ball like EVERY shot is straight in (to either the center or edge of the object ball).
 
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