Action one pocket match controversary

A

actionplayer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One pocket action match for a few burgers and this controversy on a rule came up last night.

There is 3 balls left on table all in the behind the headstring. One of the balls is froze on the rail. Player A calls it frozen. Player B then shots a different ball than the one frozen and makes it. This ball was not close or was even close to impeding the frozen ball in anyway. Player B is still shooting then rolls up to the ball frozen and has a double kiss.

Player A calls that a foul as the ball was frozen. Player B says no, you didn't call it froze. Player AA did call the ball froze infront of everyone 20 seconds prior. Player B states you have to call it froze every shot.

What is the ruling on this? some at the scene said usually a referee would call it frozen some said it was a grey area that had to be addresses before the match.

to me it seems silly to have to call a ball frozen everytime when it has already been declared frozen and noting has changed that.

makes it worse has player B should
 
Richardson

Richardson

Who me ?
Silver Member
The problem with a lot pool players..... always looking for a way to cheat someone.

The people I play with, when you call it froze......its frozen til it moves.
 
D

Dockter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm actually curious to see what people say about this one and if someone can find a rule. This happened at a tournament I played in last year. Guy A calls a ball frozen, they get a ref, ref confirms it's frozen guy b takes a different shot and misses. Guy A makes a couple then misses. Guy B gets up and shoots the frozen ball, guy a calls a foul and guy B says well you didn't call it frozen. The ref knew it was wrong but awarded the shooter the shot because a ref wasn't called over for that one. It was a pos move imo.
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
actionplayer said:
One pocket action match for a few burgers and this controversy on a rule came up last night.

There is 3 balls left on table all in the behind the headstring. One of the balls is froze on the rail. Player A calls it frozen. Player B then shots a different ball than the one frozen and makes it. This ball was not close or was even close to impeding the frozen ball in anyway. Player B is still shooting then rolls up to the ball frozen and has a double kiss.

Player A calls that a foul as the ball was frozen. Player B says no, you didn't call it froze. Player AA did call the ball froze infront of everyone 20 seconds prior. Player B states you have to call it froze every shot.

What is the ruling on this? some at the scene said usually a referee would call it frozen some said it was a grey area that had to be addresses before the match.

to me it seems silly to have to call a ball frozen everytime when it has already been declared frozen and noting has changed that.

makes it worse has player B should
Click to expand...
It could be a hour later or more! Plus, not the responsibility of the shooter to remember!

He watched him shoot the shot and never called it frozen then it is to late to call foul after the shot.

Just my two cents.

Kd
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
actionplayer said:
One pocket action match for a few burgers and this controversy on a rule came up last night.

There is 3 balls left on table all in the behind the headstring. One of the balls is froze on the rail. Player A calls it frozen. Player B then shots a different ball than the one frozen and makes it. This ball was not close or was even close to impeding the frozen ball in anyway. Player B is still shooting then rolls up to the ball frozen and has a double kiss.

Player A calls that a foul as the ball was frozen. Player B says no, you didn't call it froze. Player AA did call the ball froze infront of everyone 20 seconds prior. Player B states you have to call it froze every shot.

What is the ruling on this? some at the scene said usually a referee would call it frozen some said it was a grey area that had to be addresses before the match.

to me it seems silly to have to call a ball frozen everytime when it has already been declared frozen and noting has changed that.

makes it worse has player B should
Click to expand...


Got to call it froze again. That's why you'll see guys take a look and say, "Still froze." Pretty much an accepted part of the game.

Lou Figueroa
 
BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You described this shot as a "double kiss." I would think that if the cue ball hit the object ball twice, the object ball must have come off the rail and then went back to it. Putting that aside...

From the WPA rules:

27. Calling Frozen Balls
The referee should be careful to inspect and announce the status of any object ball that might be frozen to a cushion and the cue ball when it might be frozen to a ball. The seated player may remind the referee that such a call is necessary. The shooter must allow time for such a determination to be asked for and made, and may ask for the call himself.
Click to expand...

I don't see anything about calling it frozen immediately before the shot, let alone calling it again and again prior to each shot even though it had previously been called frozen and not touched.
 
O

Old Nine Baller

Banned
actionplayer said:
One pocket action match for a few burgers and this controversy on a rule came up last night.

There is 3 balls left on table all in the behind the headstring. One of the balls is froze on the rail. Player A calls it frozen. Player B then shots a different ball than the one frozen and makes it. This ball was not close or was even close to impeding the frozen ball in anyway. Player B is still shooting then rolls up to the ball frozen and has a double kiss.

Player A calls that a foul as the ball was frozen. Player B says no, you didn't call it froze. Player AA did call the ball froze infront of everyone 20 seconds prior. Player B states you have to call it froze every shot.

What is the ruling on this? some at the scene said usually a referee would call it frozen some said it was a grey area that had to be addresses before the match.

to me it seems silly to have to call a ball frozen everytime when it has already been declared frozen and noting has changed that.

makes it worse has player B should
Click to expand...

lfigueroa said:
Got to call it froze again. That's why you'll see guys take a look and say, "Still froze." Pretty much an accepted part of the game.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. You must call the ball "frozen" on every shot. In no case does it remain "frozen" until moved. The ball is treated as "not frozen" until called "frozen".

ONB
 
N

Nine Miler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am not sure on the physics here, but it seems there would be a very small window of opportunity for the cue ball to hit a ball that is frozen, allow the energy to pass into the object ball, the cushion, back through the object ball, and into the cue ball again to push it back off the object ball before the spin catches, all with perfect timing to meet the cue ball (which I assume was struck with follow) with a perfect amount of returned energy without coming off the rail. Can that even be done?

I have seen folks slow roll to a ball that is just barely off the cushion, bump into it with the cue ball and and end up with either the cue ball or object ball frozen to a rail or each other, but I don't think I've seen it done where a double kiss was in play with a ball that was frozen to start with.

All that aside, I am in the "call it every shot" camp just to be safe, unless there was some previous understanding. That said in every game I've been in or watched, I think it would be a hard argument to win if you said it had to be called again when clearly nothing was done to move it.
 
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pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
To me, this is the old question about the letter of the law...
...and the spirit of the law.

When I gamble, I go by the spirit of the law.

And when I make a game with someone who goes by the letter....
.....I make a much tougher game...in my favor.
...he can take it or leave it.

If I'm shooting, the ball is still froze.
 
N

Nine Miler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pt109 said:
To me, this is the old question about the letter of the law...
...and the spirit of the law.

When I gamble, I go by the spirit of the law.

And when I make a game with someone who goes by the letter....
.....I make a much tougher game...in my favor.
...he can take it or leave it.

If I'm shooting, the ball is still froze.
Click to expand...

So, if I had to type my last two sentences again, I pretty much would have said this ^^^. If you tried to say you had to call the ball frozen again, during a match, after you shot at the ball, I don't think it would serve you well in getting any one else to match up with you.
 
sfleinen

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
lfigueroa said:
Got to call it froze again. That's why you'll see guys take a look and say, "Still froze." Pretty much an accepted part of the game.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

I agree, and I've seen that myself. I've scratched my head when I see players do that, thinking to myself, "what, like it was going to move on its own?".

But then I was thinking that this might be a throwback to the days when pool halls were "upstairs" (i.e. not on the ground floor in buildings), and the floors were often wooden floors that would creak and give when walked around. Obviously, a wooden floor creaking and giving could be "felt" on the table, and a ball could theoretically "rock" 1mm away from the rail it was previously frozen to, by merely the weight of a person near one side of the table.

Or is that crazy thinking?
-Sean
 
O

Old Nine Baller

Banned
Nine Miler said:
All that aside, I am in the "call it every shot" camp just to be safe, unless there was some previous understanding. That said in every game I've been in or watched, I think it would be a hard argument to win if you said it had to be called again when clearly nothing was done to move it.
Click to expand...

If you are playing for $5, $50 or $5000 per game the object ball must be called "frozen" and acknowledged by your opponent to be "frozen" on every turn at the table. This is not arguable.

ONB
 
O

Old Nine Baller

Banned
sfleinen said:
I agree, and I've seen that myself. I've scratched my head when I see players do that, thinking to myself, "what, like it was going to move on its own?".

But then I was thinking that this might be a throwback to the days when pool halls were "upstairs" (i.e. not on the ground floor in buildings), and the floors were often wooden floors that would creak and give when walked around. Obviously, a wooden floor creaking and giving could be "felt" on the table, and a ball could theoretically "rock" 1mm away from the rail it was previously frozen to, by merely the weight of a person near one side of the table.

Or is that crazy thinking?
-Sean
Click to expand...

It's got nothing to do with any of that Sean. Every turn at the table is a completely new situation. That's why it must be called & acknowledged on every shot.

ONB
 
K

King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You got it right!

pt109 said:
To me, this is the old question about the letter of the law...
...and the spirit of the law.

When I gamble, I go by the spirit of the law.

And when I make a game with someone who goes by the letter....
.....I make a much tougher game...in my favor.
...he can take it or leave it.

If I'm shooting, the ball is still froze.
Click to expand...

Depending on who I'm playing I have played it both ways. If the ball that is called frozen has not been addressed for a few innings it needs to be called again. If Im shooting a ball at the frozen ball it needs to be checked and called again.

If Im playing someone I play all the time and we haven't had issues, then it doesn't matter.
 
N

Nine Miler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Old Nine Baller said:
If you are playing for $5, $50 or $5000 per game the object ball must be called "frozen" and acknowledged by your opponent to be "frozen" on every turn at the table. This is not arguable.

ONB
Click to expand...

In the letter yes, in the spirit, no. Hell, in golf, many similar rules are left to the discretion of the player to call it on himself, because of, you know, stuff like integrity. If my opponent pulled that on me, I would break down, pay him off, and find someone with some integrity to play with.
 
O

Old Nine Baller

Banned
Old Nine Baller said:
If you are playing for $5, $50 or $5000 per game the object ball must be called "frozen" and acknowledged by your opponent to be "frozen" on every turn at the table. This is not arguable.

ONB
Click to expand...

Nine Miler said:
In the letter yes, in the spirit, no. Hell, in golf, many similar rules are left to the discretion of the player to call it on himself, because of, you know, stuff like integrity. If my opponent pulled that on me, I would break down, pay him off, and find someone with some integrity to play with.
Click to expand...

Nine Miler,

If you were playing someone for $5000 per game you would just pay off and find someone else with "integrity" to play with? Yeah, right.

Learn how to bet your money or don't play.

ONB
 
N

Nine Miler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Actually, I don't gamble that high playing pool ONB, but I have played golf for a living in the past, and yes way more than $5000 was on the line and subject to integrity.
 
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macguy

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lfigueroa said:
Got to call it froze again. That's why you'll see guys take a look and say, "Still froze." Pretty much an accepted part of the game.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...
I agree. In fact the ball has to be called froze every time someone even looks at it. The shooter is not required to have to remember it was called froze four shots earlier.

It also would not be unusual for the ball to be looked at a second time and it is no longer frozen. I actually had this come up in a tournament I was refereeing.

I had called the ball frozen and several shots it was called again and when I checked it it was no longer frozen. The audience made some noise and I just looked at them a said the ball had since moved. I guess a ball rebounding off the rail had caused it to move or something.
 
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