tell me why

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Sorry pj.
This is how I see it in my mind.
To me there is no one way to use a pool cue.
...
But the way you have described it makes no sense, physically. How do the two strokes look different, or do they look different?
 

ENGLISH!

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When you fast pitch underhand the hand comes back toward the body with the arm bending & contracting after the ball is released.

When you pitch overhand the hand goes toward the leg & the arm stays extended, at least until very very late.

In cueing, when the hand feathers open on the backward movement the wrist can cock away.

The cue can then be delivered with the wrist recovering from that cocking away or it can recover first & the cue can then be delivered into the ball with CJ's hammer type wrist action.

Or the wrist can be set with a forward cock & kept that way during the backward movement or it can be put into that position during the backward movement & then the hammer action can deliver the cue into the ball.

There are more types of cue movement than a full pendulum swing. How one connects to the cue can inhibit certain things or it can be conducive to certain things.

Versatility has always been a good thing in my sports experiences. There is more than one way to hit a baseball & a golf ball & a tennis ball.

There is also more than one way to hit or stroke a cue ball.

Naturally all of the above are just how I see things & are just my opinions.

Best to You Larry, John, & All,
Rick
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks Rick.
On the underhanded, I'm thinking more slow pitch or compared to throwing a horseshoe. If that makes any sense.
The overhanded you described is what I do.

Thanks again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John
 
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ENGLISH!

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Thanks Rick.
On the underhanded, I'm thinking more slow pitch or compared to throwing a horseshoe. If that makes any sense.
The overhanded you described is what I do.

Thanks again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John

I hear you John. The horse shoe toss is a good analogy.

I just used the fast pitch underhand to be more in tune with the opposite overhand fast pitch.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Are you talking about the ulnar/radial deviation of the wrist? Like a pendulum stroke where the fist of the stroke hand comes up as if you're tossing a ball held in the hand sideways as opposed to hitting the ball above center with more of a jabbing draw-like stroke...?

Sorry for the confusion.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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Some examples:

Overhand ----> baseball pitch
Underhand ---> horseshoe throw, bowling

Those meanings are universal and have been around for centuries.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Some examples:

Overhand ----> baseball pitch
Underhand ---> horseshoe throw, bowling

Those meanings are universal and have been around for centuries.
Well, sure - that's the problem. We all know what an overhand movement is, and that there's no way to use it as a pool stroke (except the rare use of a dart stroke).

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, sure - that's the problem. We all know what an overhand movement is, and that there's no way to use it as a pool stroke (except the rare use of a dart stroke).

pj
chgo

I know that you know. I'm wondering what John thinks about those definitions. Is he attaching new definitions to those words?
 

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Are you talking about the ulnar/radial deviation of the wrist? Like a pendulum stroke where the fist of the stroke hand comes up as if you're tossing a ball held in the hand sideways as opposed to hitting the ball above center with more of a jabbing draw-like stroke...?

Sorry for the confusion.

Hi Matt,

Yes, to the ulnar/radial deviation of the wrists.

No, to the rest of your post.

The cue be delivered well with either wrist movement if done properly.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some examples:

Overhand ----> baseball pitch------> or casting with a fishing rod
Underhand ---> horseshoe throw, bowling

Those meanings are universal and have been around for centuries.

These motions only involve the wrist and forearm while down in the shooting position.

The reason I used "throwing a dart" is because long ago I would throw darts for about an hour before I began practicing pool.

Thanks Fran. :smile:

John
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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These motions only involve the wrist and forearm while down in the shooting position.

The reason I used "throwing a dart" is because long ago I would throw darts for about an hour before I began practicing pool.

Thanks Fran. :smile:

John

i must be dense because i dont ubderstand how the dart motion(extending the for arm im relation to the upper arm)has anything to do with the pool stroke except its what you do in the back swing and what you do when you jump using the dart method
[ appreciate your trying to help...:)
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
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I will join the dense club. Guess I need to see a video of what John is referring too.


i must be dense because i dont ubderstand how the dart motion(extending the for arm im relation to the upper arm)has anything to do with the pool stroke except its what you do in the back swing and what you do when you jump using the dart method
[ appreciate your trying to help...:)
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I will join the dense club. Guess I need to see a video of what John is referring too.
I'm guessing (since John doesn't seem inclined to explain) that he's talking about wrist motion - like CJ's "hammer" motion - which I believe is just a way of keeping the hand from going sideways, not really a "stroke".

pj
chgo
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry bbb.
Your thread has gotten way off topic and I for one apologize. :sorry:

Back to the OP's post.

As some have posted. There is a time for practice, stance, proper line up on the shot line etc. etc.
When in a match those thoughts should not enter your mind. Play your game and have fun.

When in a match and you catch yourself making a fundamental mistake, that lets you know that all of your fundamentals may not all be wired in and automatic.

When practicing focus on the fundamental issue to help get it to be automatic.

Have fun. :)
John
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
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i must be dense because i dont ubderstand how the dart motion(extending the for arm im relation to the upper arm)has anything to do with the pool stroke except its what you do in the back swing and what you do when you jump using the dart method
[ appreciate your trying to help...:)

Hi Larry,

Let me see if I can help you. It might be beneficial to have a picture of the wrist in both the ulnar & radial deviation positions available as you read this. One can be pulled up on google.

Picture a pendulum stroke from the side. When the hand moves back the wrist can deviate into the ulnar position. Then on the forward swing of the pendulum the hand can return to neutral & then move into the radial deviation position as the ball is struct before going back into the ulnar deviation position on the finish.

That would be what John is referring to as an underhand hit on the ball.

Now picture a more piston like straight movement of the hand where it does not swing up & down but instead moves more along a straight line.

To me there are more options here since the elbow is allowed to move. The above wrist action can be done. And... the wrist can be set in the radial deviation position & remain in that position as the hand is moved back & then as the hand is moved forward the wrist can transition from the radial position to the ulnar deviation position as the ball is being struck (This is what CJ does & talks about has his hammer type stroke.).

That would be one way of executing what John referred to as an overhand stroke on the ball.

Another way would be to start with the wrist in a neutral position & as the hand moves back go into the radial deviation & then proceed as above.

Also the hand can be set or go into the ulnar deviation position & remain in that position throughout the motion but limits any wrist action to virtually nil, even though I think that there will be some movement of the wrist unless the motion is very small.

On a footnote, the set up for the pendulum swing can sort of dictate if the ball is struck with wrist swinging from ulnar to neutral, at neutral, or form neutral to radial.

It's sort of like Al Pacino said in his pregame speech in the movie, Any Given Sunday, 1/2 second too soon or too late & you don't quite catch it'.
It's about timing.

I'd suggest everyone Google or YouTube that speech & watch it. It applies to many things, perhaps even AZB. I wish I could post the link but it has one disallowed curse word in it.

Anyway, I hope that can help you.

Best to you & All,
Rick
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Sorry bbb.
Your thread has gotten way off topic and I for one apologize. :sorry:

Back to the OP's post.

As some have posted. There is a time for practice, stance, proper line up on the shot line etc. etc.
When in a match those thoughts should not enter your mind. Play your game and have fun.

When in a match and you catch yourself making a fundamental mistake, that lets you know that all of your fundamentals may not all be wired in and automatic.

When practicing focus on the fundamental issue to help get it to be automatic.

Have fun. :)
John
Didn't mean to put you on the spot, John. Sorry if I did.

pj
chgo
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sorry bbb.
Your thread has gotten way off topic and I for one apologize. :sorry:

Back to the OP's post.

As some have posted. There is a time for practice, stance, proper line up on the shot line etc. etc.
When in a match those thoughts should not enter your mind. Play your game and have fun.

When in a match and you catch yourself making a fundamental mistake, that lets you know that all of your fundamentals may not all be wired in and automatic.

When practicing focus on the fundamental issue to help get it to be automatic.

Have fun. :)
John

thanks john...:thumbup:
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hi Larry,

Let me see if I can help you. It might be beneficial to have a picture of the wrist in both the ulnar & radial deviation positions available as you read this. One can be pulled up on google.

Picture a pendulum stroke from the side. When the hand moves back the wrist can deviate into the ulnar position. Then on the forward swing of the pendulum the hand can return to neutral & then move into the radial deviation position as the ball is struct before going back into the ulnar deviation position on the finish.

That would be what John is referring to as an underhand hit on the ball.

Now picture a more piston like straight movement of the hand where it does not swing up & down but instead moves more along a straight line.

To me there are more options here since the elbow is allowed to move. The above wrist action can be done. And... the wrist can be set in the radial deviation position & remain in that position as the hand is moved back & then as the hand is moved forward the wrist can transition from the radial position to the ulnar deviation position as the ball is being struck (This is what CJ does & talks about has his hammer type stroke.).

That would be one way of executing what John referred to as an overhand stroke on the ball.

Another way would be to start with the wrist in a neutral position & as the hand moves back go into the radial deviation & then proceed as above.

Also the hand can be set or go into the ulnar deviation position & remain in that position throughout the motion but limits any wrist action no virtually nil, even though I think that there will be some movement of the wrist unless the motion is very small.

On a footnote, the set up for the pendulum swing can sort of dictate if the ball is struck with wrist swinging from ulnar to neutral, at neutral, or form neutral to radial.

It's sort of like Al Pacino said in his pregame speech in the movie, Any Given Sunday, 1/2 second too soon or too late & you don't quite catch it'.
It's about timing.

I'd suggest everyone Google or YouTube that speech & watch it. It applies to many things, perhaps even AZB. I wish I could post the link but it has one disallowed curse word in it.

Anyway, I hope that can help you.

Best to you & All,
Rick

rick
i did follow your post....:)
thanks for the explanation...:thumbup:
 

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Banned
Silver Member
rick
i did follow your post....:)
thanks for the explanation...:thumbup:

Glad I could help. Try setting wrist in the ulnar position & then hit with mostly just the wrist going into the radial position. Just to see what it's like.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
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